In the world of wing chun, most don’t agree with each other.
For example, very few can agree what chisau is, and there is so much conflicting and contradicting information presented on this forum.
My question is this: Do any of you question what you have been taught? How do you know you are on the right track, and everybody else is on the wrong track?
If you find that you are on the wrong track, would you be prepared to go full circle and get back on track, even though you may be 15-years off course?
chisauking,
The way in which we learn it is explained that wing chun is the “right track” and that there is no right or wrong to it only a deeper understanding or appreciation if you will. This suggest that although you may not necessarily understand the true nature of tan sau you may run into someone that has less understanding of the true nature of a punch than your understanding of tan. The very next day you might run into someone that has more awareness of the true nature of a punch than your own awareness of tan. What we need first as you suggest is to know what questions to ask in order for us to acquire the knowledge that leaves us without further questioning.
What all this teaches us is exactly how to question what we are taught. In that the only criteria to examine and define our methods is based on those factors that don’t change Time Space and Energy. These factors are what provide wing chun the precision it displays when done correctly. Once we understand how these factors govern each and every wing chun expression then it’s just a matter of practicing those methods which best teach us how to make them a natural expression of ourselves or as we like to say gain the body karma to express our wing chun. The reason wing chun is not a system of mimicry is because of this fact.
When in the early stages of your training you are shown the true natures of wing chun your teacher only advances your training progression not your knowledge because the knowledge is there from day one to ask yourself why did tan work this time but not that time and you should be able to answer this and other questions like it for yourself with your understanding of what role Time Space and Energy play in the execution of any and all wing chun expression you may be attempting at that moment.
So again there is no right or wrong there is only a deeper understanding juxtaposed to an ability of the body to perform what the mind already knows. More than a need to question our teachers we question our own ability to understand those factors that deliver us to an understanding of the wing chun expression. Any and all wing chun instructors can put you on that path to questioning these things but its up to each of us individually to provide ourselves with the answers to these questions. Learning this fact early is more valuable than any technique anyone can show you.
Tony,
That’s quite a blanket statement you’re making. I don’t believe that “any and all wing chun instructors” have equal ability to put anyone on a correct path. I do agree that we must all take personal reponsibility for our own understanding. I think this means that we should be good students, not just blind followers.
How can you suggest that all instructors have this ability? Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, but I just don’t see it.
Same goes for right and wrong. Of course there are right and wrong ways to do things. A deeper understanding of incorrect action is a waste of time. Deeper understanding is definitely required and should be a constant goal for all students of any art. I just think you need to make sure you’re going along the correct path.
I can emphatically state that Chi Sao is not fighting. It enhances fighting. Chi Sao develops a sixth sense, and sensitivity to instantaneously feel energy (force, pressure). This enables one to initiate or counter attack instantaneously. This is the difference between hit or miss fighting or with mastery of Chi Sao having control of the opponent. The ultimate outcome is not to try to beat your opponent but to have control so that you can shut him down or enter at will. Chi Sao teaches you which “doors” are open or closed for both you and your opponent. Also how to enter, redirect, attack and counter attack. James Cama’s Fut Sao Wing Chun utilizes many versions of Chi Sao (Standard, Full Body. Chi Gerk, Closing Distance). www.futsaoyongchunkuen.com
That’s quite a blanket statement you’re making. I don’t believe that “any and all wing chun instructors” have equal ability to put anyone on a correct path.
Hello Bill,
Let me elaborate because the statement in question was meant to be a little bit simpler than how you read it. That statement was menat to suggest if you show up at a wing chun class then that is the first step in your journey or even more simply put the first step down the road of wing chun is showing up in a wing chun class and yes this then presupposes that there is a qualified teacher instructing the class. That is what was meant by any and all teachers of wing chun specifically. Without saying of course naturally if all teachers and teaching methods were the same we would not be here having this conversation so yes I can stand by my early comments and yet agree with you that not all teachers have equal ability, hope that clarifies things and sorry for any confusion.
Matrix, it may not be said but it is definitly implied. Check out the amount of time spent at most Wing Chun schools on Chi Sao practice. On the other end of the spectrum you have the Wing Chuns full contact, kickboxing gym. Each one has it’s good and bad points.
Sam, No, I don’t think it was implied. Having hung around this forum more than my fair share, I know that we are pretty much in agreement that this is not the case. Thanks for restating the point though, just in case anyone else had drawn the same conclusion.
In your reply, it’s taken as a given that your wing chun sifu is competent and is willing to teach the true way, but as most know, that isn’t always the case.
What if your sifu is not such a person? Does my question go full circle?
In my opinion, it’s not as easy as you make out. If it were, there would not be so much contradicting information on this forum.
In your reply, it’s taken as a given that your wing chun sifu is competent and is willing to teach the true way, but as most know, that isn’t always the case.
chisauking,
No that is not what was meant to be implied in my response to your original question. If I may try again to expain a little better perhaps. The essence of the post is not really concerned with the competency of the Sifu in question, why, because wing chun exist and secondly wing chun is what it is and if you start a search to find wing chun it’s up to you (the individual) to know what it is you are looking for and then understand the best method of finding it.
So how do we know wing chun. Start at the point where most wing chun families agree, easily applied, economy of motion with maximum efficiency to name a few. Let your search begin there. Then move on to how these concepts are being explained are you being instructed as to how and why the concepts and principles being explained in class adhere to the rules that precipatate things that are easily applied, involve economy of motion and maximize efficiency. Then you have some basis to analyze your methods of application against the methods of others. Then comes the question if 2 different styles are doing 2 different things neither of which may be wrong but can 2 different things be used for the same purpsoe and both exemplify maximum efficiency?
These are the questions we use to start the journey where it will end no one knows but with each answer we will be closer to a resolution of our own understanding of wing chun and further away from a reliance of someone else’s interpretation whether he be our Sifu a noted author or just some guy on the street which is why his competency level is of little consequence in this journey. Conflicting and contradicting information will remain a constant the path beyond these things is arrived at through due diligence and hard work on our part not just practicing techniques but to understand what is and is not wing chun in our own mind. A good Sifu shortens the time of your journey he doesn’t walk you down it hand in hand.
Hope that says it a little better if not we have more space.
But let me ask you this: If wing chun’s concepts is the guide for our true wing chun path, why then is 99% of all practitioners not adhereing to those concepts? Does it mean that they ALL have a lower (let’s not say wrong) understanding of wing chun?
But let me ask you this: If wing chun’s concepts is the guide for our true wing chun path, why then is 99% of all practitioners not adhereing to those concepts? Does it mean that they ALL have a lower (let’s not say wrong) understanding of wing chun?
chisauking,
Fair question, although it is unclear how you arrived at the 99%. Returning to some of my earlier post you are correct not to say wrong but lower level may not be the best term in this instance as well we might want to see this as differences of opinion not based on Time Space and Energy. In my training we are taught that Techniques can be argued upon amongst practitioners, Concepts can be argued upon amongst different practitioners, but Principles aaah now these are universal laws and can not be argued upon regardless of a persons particular position or affiliation (gravity, inertia, polarity etc.) these things leave no room for debate.
When we apply this same test of universal law to the execution of a particular wing chun expression we should all get the same result so where is the rub, opinion. Teachers and practitioners alike are relying on opinion instead of principle to guide them down their wing chun path not sure it would be as high as 99% but we agree its a large number. An example if you take a look at the thread why you should not bong high there is an accompanying video. Well in the video you’ll see one bong sau similar to that of one my family uses that the author of the thread say you should not do. Yet when he starts to explain why you should not use that particular bong sau you will not hear him speak at the concept level and you certainly will not hear him speak on principle all he shows you are techniques against an improper use of the bong sau, not to pick on anyone in paticular but that is out there now and so it comes straight to mind. This is just one example of a person choosing opinion over fact because the fact of the matter is this person does not understand the true nature of that particular bong sau or gate theory or he would not be suggesting the bong sau shown was too high.
So the moral of the story is Wing Chun is a Principle based science if someone shows you at technique your next question is what is the concept behind it and your next question after that should be what is the principle behind the concept and if these answers are not rooted in the universal laws of nature then they may not actually be wing chun. It would seem so many people are enamoured with the techniques they would rather not ask the hard questions which would answer why so many people could hover around a differing understanding than those that have asked the hard questions and received proper answers. Lastly though about the 99 percentile it is all a matter of perspective is the glass half empty or is the glass half full as long as the tea cup is empty when we arrive and full when we leave “it’s all good” as the kids say now-a-days.
chisauking thank you for the civil discussion on a very sensative topic.
Well there are a number of points that lead me to not question what I am being taught:
My Sifu learnt directly from Yip Man in the early 50’s (pre BL) when Yip Man could be bothered teaching Wing Chun.
I have been told by another student of one of my Sifus Sui hing’s that His Sifu had told him that my Sifu was pound for pound faster and a better fighter than BL. (not prepared to put a name to that as this was told to me in confidence, and it is up to this particular sifu to give me permission to add names [as much as I want to])
My sifu is in his mid 60’s and he can still kick my ass without breaking a sweat which tells me I have still much to learn from him.
he holds his desire and passion for Wing Chun deep in his heart, and transmits the art with a deep sense of humility and truth that i have really seen from anyone in any field of life.
After one year of learning with Sifu I was able to defeat a Wing Chun student of 6 years, I was more powerful, faster, and more fluid quite simply, this is not to my credit, it is to Sifus credit.
Sifu is prepared to put much time and energy into me
This is my view . . . person can not start with concept . . . wc like any martial art or any sport for that matter needs to start with techniques . . . needs to start with application . . . from the concrete we then move to concept . . . concepts come from application . . . not the other way round . . . when start with concept . . . which is vague idea . . . my idea may not be same as your idea . . . this leads to different view of what to do . . . so we are going in different directions from start . . . also then we are trying to make our preconceived ideas fit reality of fighting . . . I should do this or that because concept tells me to . . . rather than finding way to make technique work in reality of fighting . . . and seeing application then generalize concept . . . so reason there is so much disagreement in wc . . . so many different concepts . . . is because so many start with different ideas or concepts in first place . . . all believing they are right of course . . . and because most are not focused on application . . . but instead things like chi sao. I am thinking this is why we hear phrase . . . understand wc . . . so often . . . this means they view wc as intellectual exercise . . . something that needs understanding . . . no one talks about understanding boxing or wrestling or sport . . . what is there to understand? . . . lol . . . but in wc many seek understanding or say another does not understand . . . understanding comes from doing not doing from understanding. This is just my view.
BCB,
When I think of the idea of questioning what I am being taught, I think of it from the point of view of questioning my own understanding of what I have been taught. Not necessarily the source of the information; in other words your sifu.
I’m sure we’ve all had the experience of thinking we “know” a certain concept and having one of those “ah-ha” moments some time later when we discover a deeper understanding, and then thinking… “so that’s what he meant when he told me this so many months ago”.
I have tremendous respect for my sifu, and I came to Wing Chun as a bit of a sceptic. For reasons very similar the ones that you’ve ennumerated, and the fact that he’s just a great person, I think I’ll be hanging around for some time to come. Even he says that we should be good students, not blind followers. Who wants to train a bunch of mindless robots?
thus, i have heard,
Martial art training could be similar to walking the religion or spiritual or mystics path ..
one can be expert in a certain concept or religion or lineage or scientific thinking or even have mastered on a subject for decades.
and suddently, one hits the dark night of soul, the whole world will turn upside down and melt and totally make a different sense..
it then become Dorothy says ‘toto, this is not kansas anymore’
then, via the dark night, via surrender, silence, solitude, and simple, one get to know the dao/ buddha/ god/ nature ..
there is the resurrection after the pheonix is burned into ashes in the dark night.
at that point there is no longer style or concept/s but as it is.
before that occur one is just living under other’s concept or idea, be it a master’s a con man…etc one is not living one’s it.
and how is living in other’s concept or perspective can be the path of enlightment? cant because it is always within the boundary of other’s paradigm. untill the dark night shown, all hell broke lose, one ni longer believe in the bubble of other’s concept can protect one. and facing fear naked and unarm. there one will find the dao, god, nature, buddha… and the world is no longer the same with the old one after that.
originally posted by ghostofwingchun
. . . when start with concept . . . which is vague idea . . . my idea may not be same as your idea . . . this leads to different view of what to do . . . so we are going in different directions from start . . . also then we are trying to make our preconceived ideas fit reality of fighting . . . I should do this or that because concept tells me to . . . rather than finding way to make technique work in reality of fighting . . .
Now if we can examine these statements it may be possible to get some insight as to some of your questions. starting with “when start with concept . . . which is vague idea . . . my idea may not be same as your idea” ghostofwingchun is practicing wing chun yet he readily admits that he hasn’t a clue what the concepts of wing chun are! note the word vague. Secondly ". . . rather than finding way to make technique work in reality of fighting . . ."By becoming a student of wing chun we have already admitted our way is not the right way this leads to the misconception of if we do it and it works it must be right (opinion) not universal law. Back to my original post what works one day may not work the next and so begins the path of never understanding why techniques or applications work.
Each and every application/technique is wrapped in a concept that is defined by a principle ignoring this fact does not make it go away or how the grandmaster explains it to us is paraphrasing each and ever technique exist on its on meaning it has its own time space and energy the techniques do not exist because we want them to. The question each and every person practicing wing chun is asking themselves when they take up this study is can we not only understand these concepts and principles but then express them with our body through the use of their corresponding technique.
