The Modern Southern Shaolin Temple

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
21

Gian,

Unfortunately my main contact for the local Southern arts, Xu Jing Min, passed away last year. My other main teacher in Xiamen focuses on Xing Yi. I won’t be going back until a couple of years from now (we just had a son and need to wait. But we will be definitely going back–a great grandmother, four aunts, and four cousins are waiting in Quanzhou to see him!). I hope to forge some new contacts then.

Gian, an interesting note about the linquistic experiences if you learn Mandarin Chinese and make your way there. If you learn Mandarin and hit the streets for shopping or visiting people, you will find that many people in Quanzhou won’t understand you. If they do speak Mandarin, you will find it heavily accented. The area dialect is called (in Mandarin) Minnanhua (South of the River Min dialect), or Hokkien. What makes this more challenging is that the dialect differs within the region. The dialect of Xiamen differs somewhat from that Quanzhou.

Also, be careful if you find someone willing to do a correspondence course–they might take you for a ride. I was ripped off more than once–and got in trouble from my wife for being so gullible. It is a bargaining culture. The initial price is inflated automatically since everyone assumes it will be brought down through bartering.

Best of luck.

Keith

22

Shaolindynasty wrote…
Isn’t that somthing to be happy about? Shaolin is flourishing, the actual martial art practiced by the monks can be anything traditional contemporary it doesn’t matter. The shaolin martial arts are a vehicle for chan.

Agreed. The religious aspect never left. And the activity in Fujian Province is most likely a merger between the ongoing Chan sect and the local martial art groups. The martial arts are only a tool. From my perspective, the value comes in helping to preserve and popularize the regional Fujian arts, which are under-represented in many places such as the US.

I am leary, however, when many use folk traditions and legends to promote their own purpose–religious or otherwise. The danger with the Fujian Shaolin Temple(s) situation is that many a legend is being cast as truth, and that embellished truth is being used as a marketing tool for self or group gain. I am sure that many have honorable intentions. But many see an opportunity for reputation and profit. I would summarize the motivations for Southern Shaolin Temple activities as:

  1. religous
  2. business
  3. regionalism (pride in the local history and traditions)

Were these motivations present during the Northern Temple revitilization? Probably. On the bad side, some shady methods and intentions may have been involved with the Northern Temple. On the good side, I can get VCDs now on the actual Temple forms.

We’ll see how the Southern Temple(s) pan out over the next dedade. I hope that the end result is similar to the Northern Temple–the local Fujian arts are made available for study and research to the international community.

Keith

23

Kieth

Thanks for the info. As of now, I have three contacts for Tai Tzu here in the states, and two overseas. It seems however that none of them (with the exception “maybe” of one) has the entire system. Tai Tzu and it’s various counter parts seems spread out, and I am looking for as many sources as I can to peice it together.

In a couple of years, I may be in a better position to do Mainland research in the style. Maybe we could go together? You could be my guide?

Anyway, it’s a thought. Travel seems inevitable for my path.

Thanks,

Gian

24

GLW- I have no interest to turn this into a “not real shaolin” thread but… The fact that shaolin is a tourist area means nothing, most religious sites are. Also shaolin was burned down and rebuilt many times why is it since this last time it has to be dead? Is it cause of the PRC?

Brad- I don’t think the Buddhism is officially indorsed by the government but listening to the monks and their disciples, it seems like they “sneak” the buddhism in there. There are halls and stuff set up also there are monks there that only practice buddhsim and not martial arts. I think the PRC has loosened up on the no religion thing and shaolin probally can get away with alot cause it is such a tourist area.

The people that fight so hard and say this and that is not the “original” don’t really understand the original’s or otherwises message anyway.

25

kboggess

I practice 5 Ancestors Fist. BTW, I was always told that Wuzuquan was started in the Northern temple and was adopted by the Southern temple. From what my Sigung told us, the history of Wuzuquan is pretty clouded anyway.

As far as what they practice, I am not really sure to be honest. All I know is that my Sigung was teaching them Wuzuquan and some of the healing arts. The way they practice Wuzuquan definitely has a Taizu flavour to it (whereas the way we learn it it has a more Peh Hok flavour).

26

“The way they practice Wuzuquan definitely has a Taizu flavour”

By the time you read this Royal Dragon is on a plane to this temple.

The interesting thing is we get to watch and hear first hand acounts about how they are putting together the arts in these temples. This may shed more light on exactly how they did this at the Songshan temple to cause i’m sure they did somthing similar. I would love to go on a tour of the famous martial temples someday. Like one that would go to all the Shaolin temples, Wu Dang, Emei etc. That would be somthing really interesting wouldn’t it.(here is where Gene tries to sell me tours by the guy who had an indorsed ad in Kungfu qigong :wink: )

27

Yup, I’m THERE!!!

But first, I have to learn Chinese, several dialects infact.

Now where was this temple again?

RD

28

The temple is in Quanzhou. See http://www.info.gov.hk/mardep/chinport/quanzhou.htm

29

glw

You know, I hear this all a lot from martial arts people. I’m really not sure what it is about money that freaks out MA people but it bleeds into Shaolin in a bizarre way. Frankly it takes money to restore and maintain temples.
Certainly tourism is a big factor, but that is a factor at any temple. Take for example the Mahbodhi Temple in Bodh Gaya. It was in a complete state of disrepair after the Brits pulled out. Now, thanks to tourist and pilgrim income, it has undergone massive restoration but it is still far below its former glory. It had less lineage claims than Shaolin, but now it has redeemed itself considerably. Can we say the rebuilt Mahbodhi temple is truly the Mahabodhi?
And as for the old PRC wushu killed traditional kungfu bit - you got to talk to the ‘folks’ who say that to get to the contradiction. It resides within them. Wushu had an undeniable effect, but I’ve found plenty of traditional stuff still extant. And it wasn’t like I had to dig and dig - it’s pretty easy to find. If you beleive Shaolin is long dead - that’s fine. But can’t we restore it too in concept and spirit? And can’t we honor those few monks who have survived through things like the CR and repsect their lineage?

30

Gene,

to truly REBUILD the temples into what they are supposed to be…TEMPLES first…historical later…

The first step is to recruit MONKS who are from the sects (ie. Chan or Zen) as in a call to international Buddhist organizations with a request to rebuild the temples.

When was this done… ?

Even if you DO have some older monks who came back to the temple, you need more than this to rebuild and teach new monks…and get new novitiates. This is typically done by bringing monks from other places for temporary or permanent stays to teach and organize.

When was this done… ?

AND>..who did it, where did they come from, what sects did they come from, etc…

How did the Chinese Govt. backing in light of the official edict of NO state support for ANY religion or religious endeavor. The Govt. tolerates religions to an extent but does NOT fund them. Follow the money trail …

I have known rank and file practicing Buddhists that follow the tenets of the faith more strictly than any of these monks… Either that is an embarrassment for those monks or they were never really monks in the first place…Either way, they have some ways to go before I would follow them as monks…or promote them…

Been around a while…I remember the days when Bruce Lee was alive…and many would claim that he trained at the Shaolin temple (because they got the movies mixed up with real life) and then there were those (some still around) who claimed that they trained at Shaolin in the 1960’s…So excuse me if I am highly dubious on this…The rice bowl is too big…too many people can make money too easily on this…and it is not needed, the training is real, why add the history and religion dream to a reality of training?

Honesty and money…what is wrong with this picture…

Religion and money…even worse.

31

temples and money

My own opinion about Shoalin temples and money is that the revenue generating methods–especially leaning on the popularity of the classical wu shu–is necessary due to the fact that it is an orginization with overhead. It’s a win-win situation between martial art enthusiasts and religious promoters.

For me, the line is crossed with the activity of for-profit martial arts businesses in dealing with the non-profit temple activity. Hypothetical situation: overseas instructors make donations to a temple (Northern or Southern) and they get an inscribed stone or they get lineage authorization.

Case in point: I know of two such instances where the overseas instructor either got an inscription stone set up at the temple or that an instructor got a lineage without much instruction. I do not know if there was any large donations behind them–and I hope there wasn’t–but the fact that both parties are now using those actions as part of their marketing for their for-profit business makes me wonder.

I don’t know the business practices of the temple organizations, so I hope I’m being paranoid and over-reacting. If anybody knows first hand, I’m interested in learning more.

Gene, I know you’ve been to the Shaolin Temple (and I have thoroughly enjoyed your informative articles). Do you see any of this kind of activity?

Keith

32

I agree it’s a win win situation. The monks teach wushu(traditional or otherwise) to raise money for and introduce people to chan buddhism. Shaolin was always a politically conected temple so I personally barely get peoples disgust with the connections to PRC. I know as americans we are brought up to think of communists to be our enemies but they aren’t always. Other than this though I don’t get it. Other churches and temples are tourist attractions, other churches and temples need money. Christian churches pass the collection plate, anything wrong with that? I don’t think so. Traditional Buddhist monks used to beg for alms, now instead of begging they offer a service that martial artists want, training. I think it is pretty ironic that secualr people are the first to jump on the monks about what they should and shouldn’t do, most of these people don’t even have more than a very surface knowledge of buddhism and even less about the chan sect in particular. I also find it ironic that people complain about paying monks for instruction but have no problem going to pay for classes at the local McKwoon. Very strange :confused:

33

Chris of Shaolin dynasty

I think you are corerect my friend. If you think about it, this is EXACTLY what the Catholic church does. They teach and run grade schools for money to help support the church. In returne, they have an easy platform to aid in the spreading of thier religion.

The Shaolin are doing the same thing, only the subject matter is different.

RD

34

Not your orthodox temple…

glw: In a perfect world, your steps to rebuilding make sense. But in modern China, things seldom happen so. Steps such as these suggest a mastermind. Shaolin’s rebirth was based on what opportunities were presented.
Now certainly, the economic growth to an impoverished area resulting from a blockbuster movie is a real weird way to start, but then so is staring a a rock wall for nine years. Things didn’t go as planned because there was no plan. When your hungry, the only plan is to get food, nothing more. And when the food came pouring in, many individuals got gluttonous. Mistakes were made. They probably still are being made. Lord, find me the realm of no error.
But as for your steps, Buddhist organizations have been called into Shaolin recently. Few martial artists look at the Buddhism - they usually get stuck out in one of the wushuguans - so this isn’t normally something that is reported to our community. Both Fu Sheng Hui of China’s Buddhist college, and Bin Huan, one of the most respected Buddhist masters in China today, have been heavily involved with rebuilding the Shaolin Sangha. As for step two, outside monks have been brought in all along. Many noted Shoalin monks were initially trained at different temples, most notably the abbot, Shi Yongxin, and our own American import, Shi Guolin.
What jams the whole process is the warrior monks. These tend to be the monks we follow since we are martial artists. By strict technicality, they are not monks since they do not take all the vows - they are martial disciples. But Shaolin has a special clause that allows them to keep these warrior monks and take the monk title. The warrior monks are fighters, plain and simple, and some only stay until they feel they’ve learned enough, then go on to be pro martial artists. There are about 50+ warrior monks. There are almost 200 fully indoctrinated monks. I’ve written little about the indoctrinated monks. Most of the monks I’ve written about are warrior monks. I have not seen anyone address the indoctrinated monks at all, other than me. Maybe I should write more on this aspect, but frankly I’m not sure it would really appeal to our readers. They aren’t that interesting unless you’re Buddhist.

kboggess: The concept of non-profit only really exists in Western tax laws. To my knowledge, anyone who contributes to the temple (and continues to contribute - the stones can be removed) might get a stone and nothing on those stones claims lineage. What a stone setter might say later is beyond Shaolin’s control. It is a large sum and it is used for publicity on both ends. The contributor wants to gain merit for contributing. The recipient wants to acknowledge them because it needs such contributions to stay alive.
While I might echo your concern about stone setters making claims, I do respect their contribution. I tried to set a stone myself but could not afford it. Anyone who donates that much cash to a temple deserves some recognition.

35

Ah…Gene..therein lies the problem

If you are a nun or a monk in a Catholic or Episcopalian church, you are either a novice or not. A novice is one who has NOT taken their final vows.

Now, if you are a novice and you leave the monastery or convent, you are NO LONGER A NUN, MONK, PRIEST, etc…

If you have taken your vows and leave, there is a process that you must follow and at then end of this process, you are NO LONGER A NUN, MONK, PRIEST, etc…

If you leave the convent or monastery as a missionary or on assignment, you are fully expected to follow the rules of your order - and this applies to novices as well as fully vowed members. In fact, the rule of thumb is that no novice is ever sent out into the world on such an assignment without a supervising experienced mentor nun, monk, etc… to prevent the novice from slipping in their vows.

This is what is required to be a nun or monk and it tends to apply to Buddhist monks as well…for all orders except the fabled Shaolin…

So, if the warrior monks are novices they are Novice monks…and should be called such. If they have taken their vows and leave the temple, they are either to be held to their vows or they are not monks.

If they have left the temple to go on to other things, they are NOT monks…they are ex-novice monks…the key being EX.

If they took their vows and leave - not on missionary work - and do not follow their vows, then they should either be removed by the order or they should leave the order…in either case, they would no longer be monks.

Now, if the aim is to REALLY have a temple with true monks, everyone needs to quit making excuses for non-monklike behaviour on the part of any of them. If you are at a temple you are a monk first…or you do not claim to be one at all.

I can think of several of these types of monks in the US that MIGHT be called ex-novice monks or even ex-monks…but none of these I am referring to are now monks…regardless of what they may or may not have been in the past.

Now, if I were a Catholic priest and went to another country, got married, and had kids, would it be right for me to continue to wear the collar?

We all allow for way to many lapses in vows in this…and why…“They are SHAOLIN monks” . To me, that is a VERY lame excuse for dishonesty or violating vows.

36

my main contribution is this…whatever else you may say, an effort has been made to bring the art back from masters originally from the fukien region who fled china for various reasons in the past (escaping the japanese, communism etc.)

I went to what i believe was the first such modern meeting in 1992.representatives from 5 countries were there (malaysia, china , australia [incl. me], philipines and indonesia)
Every year (now every 2 years) these meetings are held, and various sifus and their students go.
an attempt was made to standardise Ngor chor (wuchu, five ancestors fist) but of course nobody really wants to change, so it’s kind of amusing.
yes, the local chinese pratitioners have a very “wushu flavour” to the art IMO, but they are also open to the influences of the other more traditional sifus (who they invited after all). So all is not lost! 8)

My sifu (same as Joedoes’) has been to both new temples (i think, esp the quanzhou one though, which to me seems much less commercialised) many times to teach the new monks, and i have been on these trips numerous times.

is the art original and complete? i’m not gonna walk into that sh!t fight…BUT i know from personal experience there’s a lot more going on there than JUST modern wushu. (likewise though, the best masters of southern shaolin are probably not in the temples, or even in china)

37

GLW- What exactly is your point? Are you trying to say Shaolin isn’t a temple and the monks aren’t real? Are you a monk, are you even a buddhist?Why do you have the authority to say what a shaolin monk should and shouldn’t do?

I am not attacking you but I want to get the point across to you that no matter what us as martial artists or buddhists think about the monks it is ultimatly up to the shaolin monks themselves to decide what their vows are/mean and what they are’t/don’t mean.

I think it’s funny when people put down monks for breaking vows they know nothing or little about. Shaolin and chinese culture is very different than what is here in the west. That’s why I don’t judge what monks do, cause I have no idea what is and isn’t exceptable for a Shaolin monk.

It’s also funny when they say the monks break their vows while they themselves are drinking beer, scarfing down an extra sausage pizza and watching porn. Those monks live a life that some of us would never even consider and some of us have the nerve to put them down. Shaolin monks are also human and somtimes they give in to temptation nobodys perfect.

38

Warrior monks

Yes, warrior monks are a problem if you are defining monks in such narrow terms. But to be a monk, one only has to belong to the order. Each order defines it’s own. The defination of western monks and nuns have little bearing on buddhist monks. And the defination of buddhist monks change from instance to instance, just as it does in western religions. Shaolin defines its order to include warrior monks and has so since the Tang.
If you ask a promoter, of course they will tell you he (or she) has the ‘real’ Shaolin monks. But if you ask the monks themselves, they will tell you if they are a martial monk, or an indoctrinated monk on a mission, or even an ex-monk (see our jan/feb 2002 cover story.) http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kunmagjanisk.html Usually, it’s pretty easy to figure out if you have a fundamental understanding of kungfu and buddhism. Now, the warrior monks do have chan training - some quite a bit, but others not so much. To understand Shaolin, one really has to look at the individuals.
Now I’ll will admit that their are charlatans too. Some of the local private schools had fake warrior monks. Most of those are shut down with the relocations of the last two years. The new abbot has made a serious effort to clean house.
I suppose a lot of Shaolin really depends on what you want to find there. It is a mirror of your preconception like any sacred place. If the mirror is dusty, you might not get any more. But if you penetrate, you might be able to get past those preconceptions and achieve some transformation. If you want to find kungfu, there is that. If you want to find wushu, it’s there too. You can even find charalatans. If you want to find Buddha, well, you know what to do when you meet Buddha on the road, yes?

39

Ah… Gene really knows how to word the stuff that I mean. He is truly the abbot of the Shaolin Board and is truly a “dragon spreading shaolin to the west”.

40

I think it’s funny when people put down monks for breaking vows they know nothing or little about.

So, what are the vows they take? I thought a lot of them were pretty clear, like not having sex.