The Mixing of Martial Arts

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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With the broad concept of mixed marital arts becoming mainstream with almost all martial artists today, what are some opinions about what systems compliment each other and produce the overall most skilled/best rounded martial artist. Specific styles are what I am looking at rather than a good stand up game and good ground game. I have been a practioner of Kung Fu for 12 years and my hands did not have the speed, power, and timing they have since I cross trained in boxing. Most of my kick development was from Kung Fu, although the past few years I have focused much more on power kicks (front thrust, side thrust, Thai round kick) as opposed to snap kicks. I currently train with a Judo/Submission Wrestler who has greatly improved my once non-existent ground game. This would probably be my breakdown of arts I think mix well:

Stand up:

  1. Boxing- Unbelievable hand combinations as well as condiontioning drills.
  2. Muay Thai- Knees and elbows as well as excellent shin condiontiong and power training.
  3. Kung Fu )- Kicks such as donkey, stomp, and side kick.

Clinch/Throw:

  1. Muay Thai- Very good clinch training.
  2. Judo- Excellent over the hip throws.
  3. Wrestling- Shoots, takedowns, sprawls, and unbelievable condtioning.

Ground:

  1. Submission Wrestling- Dominant positioning, submission, GNP
  2. Judo/BJJ- Newaza. Also I did not put BJJ here because I think it is below the others but because I have the least experience with it. From what I have seen it is excellent in ground skills and submissions.

Please feel free to add the arts you feel make the total package.

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Judo also has great trips and foot sweeps from the clinch. I’ve found those much more practical than the hip throws.

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You know, I’ve cross trained a lot, and at the end of the day what I do is Choy Li Fut. I may have learned the skills from Sombo, Judo, San Shou, Kali, Bak Mei, Zhaquan, Baji or wherever, but IMHO it is the internalisation of the techniques that is important. You need to have a structure to work within in order link the skills fluidly together. Therefore you just need to find stuff that will fit within your structure, which will probably be different for everybody.
Indeed, I was having a conversation with one of my students the other day about the linking of skills and principles in combat and the importance of spontaneous reaction etc, and he asked about the development of my own methods, and I came to the realisation that while a large chunk came from my exposures and training, another chunk really was just me :cool:

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and I came to the realisation that while a large chunk came from my exposures and training, another chunk really was just me

Reply]
Ultimately, THAT is what it is about. Styles really only get passed down to the few who are able to copy the founders through time. The rest of us learn the “Technology” of the style, but perform, and and fight our own way with it…becomming our own style, or sub style.

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[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;721661]and I came to the realisation that while a large chunk came from my exposures and training, another chunk really was just me

Reply]
Ultimately, THAT is what it is about. Styles really only get passed down to the few who are able to copy the founders through time. The rest of us learn the “Technology” of the style, but perform, and and fight our own way with it…becomming our own style, or sub style.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, but not necessarily what I had in mind. What I want to know is what elements have you taken from styles and made your own style more powerful,
such as Ford Perfect stating that trips and sweeps from Judo he found more effective than hip throws. Many of the kicks found in Kung Fu such as the donkey, stomp, side thrust, hook, and ax kicks I have found to be powerful and can be used well. Techniques from styles is perhaps what I should have said, but again that is the style and what it is based on. Obviously the practioner and how they train are the most important, but I am curious as to what works well for practioners.

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I don’t think it is the techniques at all, but the WAY they are used that determins the style anway.

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[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;721683]I don’t think it is the techniques at all, but the WAY they are used that determins the style anway.[/QUOTE]

I’m not here to argue style, what I am asking is what works from what styles. It is the techniques that are used. For example, if you take me to the ground and I pull guard and slip in a triangle choke, where did that come from. Was it BJJ or Sub. Wrestling. If we are sparring and I slip a jab, cross, hook combo in, was it boxing or another pugilist style. My question is what techniques from what styles works best. There is no right or wrong answer but different opinions from different people that I am looking for.

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What I cant understand about this whole thing is this, Why arent these cross training methods found within your core system? I have nothing against cross training per say, I am a tradtionalist :eek: . However, our kung-fu has the boxing combos, power kicking & snap kicking, submissions (standing & ground), & trips and throws, etc… I would think that a core system of kung-fu would address these issues. Also, I have been exposed to many style of M.A. as well and I can look at judo, JJU, boxing, etc and know exactly where its found in my training forms or fighting principles. I understand that many kung-fu schools only train one aspect of CMA so cross training is sometimes a must for CMAist. But, I think the CMAist would go back to his or her style and try to locate the techniques that represent the cross training material learned… I just really hate hearing that someone has spent 12 years training in kung-fu and lacked speed and power in their hand or boxing skills, as wellas, having no ground skills… I’ve been fortunate enough to address these issues in my style, not to say we do everything and no-one can do anything that we dont already know, lol. However, we do cover all ranges of self-defense. I would like to hear more CMAist say they cross train to enhance their already gained knowledge of boxing tech, kicking, grappling, etc, not hearing them say, I had to cross train cause we didnt have the proper training in my style… I’m not bashing anyone here or any style. I feel like this, if you learned something from what your doing, good, keep up the good work. Just a traditionalist point of view…

To answer the question at hand, cross training all ranges, boxing, kicking, grappling, and submission is the best way to go. As far as styles to use for this training, that would depend on the person and their abilities. That would be more of a personal quest…

C.S.

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[QUOTE=Citong Shifu;721690]What I cant understand about this whole thing is this, Why arent these cross training methods found within your core system? I have nothing against cross training per say, I am a tradtionalist :eek: . However, our kung-fu has the boxing combos, power kicking & snap kicking, submissions (standing & ground), & trips and throws, etc… I would think that a core system of kung-fu would address these issues. Also, I have been exposed to many style of M.A. as well and I can look at judo, JJU, boxing, etc and know exactly where its found in my training forms or fighting principles. I understand that many kung-fu schools only train one aspect of CMA so cross training is sometimes a must for CMAist. But, I think the CMAist would go back to his or her style and try to locate the techniques that represent the cross training material learned… I just really hate hearing that someone has spent 12 years training in kung-fu and lacked speed and power in their hand or boxing skills, as wellas, having no ground skills… I’ve been fortunate enough to address these issues in my style, not to say we do everything and no-one can do anything that we dont already know, lol. However, we do cover all ranges of self-defense. I would like to hear more CMAist say they cross train to enhance their already gained knowledge of boxing tech, kicking, grappling, etc, not hearing them say, I had to cross train cause we didnt have the proper training in my style… I’m not bashing anyone here or any style. I feel like this, if you learned something from what your doing, good, keep up the good work. Just a traditionalist point of view…

To answer the question at hand, cross training all ranges, boxing, kicking, grappling, and submission is the best way to go. As far as styles to use for this training, that would depend on the person and their abilities. That would be more of a personal quest…

C.S.[/QUOTE]

First and foremost, I would not assume because someone cross trains that their core style is weak. Boxers train their hand strikes like no other style because it is all they train. So you may have these in your style of Kung Fu but do you train them at the intensity of a boxer with focus mitts, on a heavy bag, speed bag, ect. If you do, great, if not, I guarantee you a boxer has stronger hand strikes. As for the grappling side, yes, my style had sweep, takedowns, and submissions, but I did not practice them at the intensity that my grappling coach does. Was that the fault of my core style and original instructor, maybe, but I have seen few Kung Fu styles that have a good ground game. Again, if you always had this, good for you, but you said something interesting also, “, I have been exposed to many style of M.A. as well and I can look at judo, JJU, boxing, etc and know exactly where its found in my training forms or fighting principles” . Recognizing it and being able to do it are two different things. I have heard many spew about how grappling is hidden in forms. If there were these kinds of useful techniques, why would one hide them? And are they practiced in a realistic manner, (not grab my wrist and don’t resist while I take you down). Again, I am not bashing you or your style either, I don’t know you or what your training and capabilities are. But also, you don’t know mine, so I would not jump to conclusions about what my training or lack of is;) .

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;721693]First and foremost, I would not assume because someone cross trains that their core style is weak. Boxers train their hand strikes like no other style because it is all they train. So you may have these in your style of Kung Fu but do you train them at the intensity of a boxer with focus mitts, on a heavy bag, speed bag, ect. If you do, great, if not, I guarantee you a boxer has stronger hand strikes. As for the grappling side, yes, my style had sweep, takedowns, and submissions, but I did not practice them at the intensity that my grappling coach does. Was that the fault of my core style and original instructor, maybe, but I have seen few Kung Fu styles that have a good ground game. Again, if you always had this, good for you, but you said something interesting also, “, I have been exposed to many style of M.A. as well and I can look at judo, JJU, boxing, etc and know exactly where its found in my training forms or fighting principles” . Recognizing it and being able to do it are two different things. I have heard many spew about how grappling is hidden in forms. If there were these kinds of useful techniques, why would one hide them? And are they practiced in a realistic manner, (not grab my wrist and don’t resist while I take you down). Again, I am not bashing you or your style either, I don’t know you or what your training and capabilities are. But also, you don’t know mine, so I would not jump to conclusions about what my training or lack of is;) .[/QUOTE]

Iron Eagle, I was not jumping to any conclusions pertaining your training, just commenting on your original statement concerning your attributes after 12 years of training. Please dont midjudge my comments or intent, I meant nothing personal. As for me and your question on training the seperate attitubes with the required intensity to become skillful in that range, yes I do. Afterall, CMA/MA in general should be trained with intensity no matter the range, boxing, kicking, grappling, etc. Now, the problem most people have when training is finding the time to train all ranges with the same intensity. This is a very hard thing to do wothout the time dedication… As far as, grappling and locks being hidden in forms, this is true. They are hidden for many reasons. I’m not sure exactly why for each style, but they can be found in almost every form. “Are they parcticed in a realistic manner” , I should hope so, I cant speak for the countless styles, but if not, shame on them…

I use mitts, heavy bag, double end striking bag, body shield, sometimes speed bag, but not often, thai pads, etc, for attribute training. Other than working on the heavy bag, we train stationary, moving, & attcking with mitts, thai pads, body shield, etc. We use various methods for conditioning as well; hands, elbows, knee’s, shins, & feet (actually we try to use whole body, but focus conditioning on stated body parts). Also, we do tons of sparring. Often we train each range seperate before we spar san da, which can start standing and end with ground submission or start on the ground and end standing.

I’m not saying that I’m an expert at every range, just saying that its possible to be very skilled in all ranges while studying a core style… My comment earlier was made due to the fact that many schools dont stress the importance of all range applications and the required strength, endurance, power, speed, & understanding. I wasnt pointing a finger at you or your school, just alot of schools out there that dont care. For those who want to train in a range that there school doesnt offer it should be addressed either at that school or another school that gives training in said range/s. You can bet your last dollar that I would cross train if I wasnt getting what I thought was imprtant from the different ranges… Our basic training principle is not to be limited in our understanding of self-defense. If someones a better boxer then we move to another range, etc…

I’m sorry if you took my post the wrong way, I wasnt referring to any one person or style. I just cant understand why other MAist have a hard time believing that there are styles that teach these attributes comprehensively within thier core…

CS

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there are a lot of loooong posts on this thread and I didn’t have the time to read them all before posting this, so please excuse me if I am repeating anyone or if this has taken a completely different turn and the original question is no longer relevant but . . .

what about some serious sanda/san shou training for stand up and take-downs and then BJJ or submissions wrestling for ground work? Just my opinion, and I’m not trying to start a traditional martial arts fight here, but its all how one trains. like you said, your hands got better when you picked up boxing because of the training. Well . . . sanda has the boxing, the different kicks (and they tend to use more techniques than in Muay thai, again not trying to start an argument), as well as takedowns that work. Throw in the BJJ or wrestling and that seems pretty well rounded!

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[QUOTE=Ben Gash;721641]I came to the realisation that while a large chunk came from my exposures and training, another chunk really was just me :cool:[/QUOTE]

It is you based on your physical attributes and what works best for you within the contexts or elements of techniques. A technique is a solution or move/countermove to the opponent’s move.

In college days, I had lessons for Chen Tai Chi and other styles. I started to compile short practice sets. It look so weird to others. My 2 younger brothers were practicing Zhao Bao Tai Chi. They always teased me by saying what is weirder today as greeting conversation.

for instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEBtNwouCYw

there are upward Ba Gua piercing/drilling palm like move, Tong Bei fanning hand (Shan Shou) and Ba Ji Fa Jin turbo charged Tai Chi Shoulder Kao etc. It is a Tai Chi practice set but has influences from other styles b/c of me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itXCOa9nDC8

my Ba Ji is softer and Tai Chi like.

my Tai Chi looks harder b/c incorporation of something else.

what you can’t get away with or without is You.

You are what you train or practice etc.

:eek: :smiley:

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I think anyone is well rounded in application/self-defense regardless of style/s if they train hand/boxing, kicking, locking/submission, & takedown/throwing. As mentioned earlier, people have different attributes that will dictate thier approach to the ats they will study and the skill obtained. Nonetheless, I feel everyone should have some basic knowledge of the different ranges…

CS