i think you should also do a category for weight loss. i am sure there are a few ppl on here like my self that could stand to lose a few and a contest is a great way to promote that and that is also a component of fitness. just a thought.
edit: i guess the fair way to do that would be to do percentage of weight not actual pounds/ kilos since there are some with less to lose.
[QUOTE=BruceSteveRoy;811860]i think you should also do a category for weight loss. i am sure there are a few ppl on here like my self that could stand to lose a few and a contest is a great way to promote that and that is also a component of fitness. just a thought.
edit: i guess the fair way to do that would be to do percentage of weight not actual pounds/ kilos since there are some with less to lose.[/QUOTE]
but i’m trying to pack on the pounds:D
[QUOTE=bodhitree;811773]I’ll agree with most of that list, but I’m not sure what bootstrappers are? Are they when your crouched down with your hands on toes then extend your legs. [/quote]Pretty close. There’s a really good def on trainforstrength.
Oh, and I think burpees would be enough, sprawls would be too much.
OK, but we should do the burpees with a push-up and jump at the end.
I’M still not down for any kind of distance running. I think sprints are a much better measure of fitness… plus there’s no way I can measure - this is a km country! 
possible:
long jump
standing still vertical jump
As a previous long jump champion and someone who can’t vertical jump over a foot or so, this sounds like a measure of a natural attribute rather than a fitness determiner. I’m against them.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;811855]I wouldn’t do it in one day - I would do it in weeks. [/QUOTE]I was thinking all of them as intervals in one day… but Seven’s idea makes a lot more sense!
[QUOTE=BruceSteveRoy;811860]i think you should also do a category for weight loss. i am sure there are a few ppl on here like my self that could stand to lose a few and a contest is a great way to promote that and that is also a component of fitness.[/QUOTE]Dunno, I think that could do with another thread, another challenge, since again, it’s not only fitness but genetic predisposition, diet, etc.
I’m up for the dead hang pull-ups btw; that’s all I ever do.
I’m still not up for dips.
How about bear crawls - we don’t have any ‘horizontal’ exercises?
[QUOTE=SouthernTiger;810959]Out of curiousity, how do you figure that a horse stance has nothing to do with fitness?[/QUOTE]I notice nobody dealt with this.
Welcome to the board. 
Standing still in one place is nothing to do with fitness. Endurance maybe, but pure fitness? I tell you what - how do you figure that it has something to do with fitness?
Plus, it isn’t even a component of many many people’s MA, so what length of time would be a fair determiner of fitness for someone who’s never done one in their life, let alone your stylistic differences?
I think we should just decide on wat we want seems we are a lil in danger of having to many diff types of a similar exercise. So is it sprints if so what type or a 1.6 k run (mile)
The Army does a 3-even PT test. Pushups, situps, and a 2-mile run. Pushups and the run vary in scores between males and females, and all three vary by age group. I can link you guys to this table if interested. There are also hard and fast rules about the test as well, such as how pushups/situps are done, etc.
Next Week:
Push Ups!
We all know them, and we can get started. We can post results throughout the week. I picked push ups for a few reasons 1 we all know them, 2 no need to find access to any equipment, and 3 (selfish reason) will probably be my worst one. I personally don’t have access to a video camera (but my #'s will probably be weak anyway).
I think we all need to do some standard questions:
First Name (or nickname):
Age:
Height:
Weight:
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;812017]I notice nobody dealt with this.
Welcome to the board.
Standing still in one place is nothing to do with fitness. Endurance maybe, but pure fitness? I tell you what - how do you figure that it has something to do with fitness?
Plus, it isn’t even a component of many many people’s MA, so what length of time would be a fair determiner of fitness for someone who’s never done one in their life, let alone your stylistic differences?[/QUOTE]
Mr. Punch,
First off, Thanks for the kind welcome. I have been lurking for quite awhile and just recently decided to sign up and put in my two cents on various topics.
Secondly, I think our difference in opinion on horse stance may come from our lack of definition on the word “fitness”. Dictionary.com defines fitness as"capability of the body of distributing inhaled oxygen to muscle tissue during increased physical effort." Obviously standing in a horse stance requires your body to utilize more oxygen to stabilize your body against gravity. Depending on depth of the stance, I think this is an excellent test for fitness as it does test endurance of the thigh muscles.
Thirdly, I am confused that you say that the horse stance is not a part of “many, many people’s ma”? Is this not a chinese martial arts forum? The horse is THE foundation of nearly all chinese martial arts. In essence the horse stance is merely a crouched ready position which can be applied to almost all MA of the planet. (The exception may be Dog Boxing…what the hell is up with dog boxing???)
As to the time factor…it is a competition right? So really we are just (friendly) competing against one another therefore the question “so what length of time would be a fair determiner of fitness for someone who’s never done one in their life” is fairly irrelevent. The “grading”, if you will, is on a curve, not measured against a “standard”
Thanks for great discussion!
-Blake
Timed horse stance is a good indication of dedication to holding a horse stance and of one’s fitness in that direction.
You could replace Timed horse stance with situps and pushups, etc, and the outcome would be the same as I stated above.
A good horse is crucial to many systems of kung fu, if not all or nearly all…but I will not get into a competition. Unless Sifu suggests otherwise, I won’t go beyond five minutes for want of other things to do…priorities!
On the other hand it would definately scare off the non-tcma crowd!:eek:
[QUOTE=SouthernTiger;812436]Mr. Punch,
First off, Thanks for the kind welcome. I have been lurking for quite awhile and just recently decided to sign up and put in my two cents on various topics.[/quote]Cool.
Secondly, I think our difference in opinion on horse stance may come from our lack of definition on the word “fitness”. Dictionary.com defines fitness as"capability of the body of distributing inhaled oxygen to muscle tissue during increased physical effort." Obviously standing in a horse stance requires your body to utilize more oxygen to stabilize your body against gravity. Depending on depth of the stance, I think this is an excellent test for fitness as it does test endurance of the thigh muscles.
Oddly, I was using the very same def. You may utilize more oxygen by horse, but you’re not necessarily signifcantly affecting its distribution to your muscles, unless my understanding of anaerobic exercise and biology is lacking (a distinct possibility).
The bolded part is a non-sequitur. You say it’s a great test for fitness because it’s a test for endurance. Check Dictionary.com again: endurance and fitness are different.
Plus, for people who practice this horse, unless they are doing a personal best each time, they’re not actually going to be going to be utilizing a great deal more extra oxygen than if they were just standing up.
There are lots of people here who don’t even do CMA. It’s part of the flavour of the forum, and one reason why many people actually like it and come here so often.
I’ve done wing chun, tai chi and dabbled in a Hsing yi based eclectic art and been shown the basics of I-chuan (well, taikiken which may not qualify as CMA as it has its own slant). The wing chun has a totally different horse. The tai chi didn’t emphasize the horse, and certainly not for any length of time. The Hsing yi didn’t use it. The I-chuan had a horse but not the classic one you are talking about. Strangely enough, the only arts I’ve done that have concentrated on it were aikido and karate: neither of course Chinese!
In essence the horse and a crouch are very different, functionally, physically and theoretically.
Fair enough. My understanding of the purpose of this challenge is different to yours. I didn’t realize it was supposed to be some competition: a challenge to yourself, not to others. I thought it was more of a fitness standard for the forum: some base level we can all try for / aspire to / maintain. If it’s a competition, **** that! Seven, GDA, Vash, Ironfist, Samurai Jack and Toby are the winners! Everyone knows that!
[QUOTE=WinterPalm;812461]Timed horse stance is a good indication of dedication to holding a horse stance and of one’s fitness in that direction.
You could replace Timed horse stance with situps and pushups, etc, and the outcome would be the same as I stated above.[/quote]Good point.
Another good point.
Why do that? Apart from the fact that it’s wrong: as I said, I’ve done most horse in aiki based arts and karate.
I guess it would be okay if anyone wants to do their pushups this week or over the weekend can do so, but I think we should finish push up week Sunday 11/1. I’ll probably do mine on Monday (after lifting, ha ha)
[QUOTE=bodhitree;812579]I guess it would be okay if anyone wants to do their pushups this week or over the weekend can do so, but I think we should finish push up week Sunday 11/1. I’ll probably do mine on Monday (after lifting, ha ha)[/QUOTE]
I forget, knuckle push-ups or palms push-ups?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;812584]I forget, knuckle push-ups or palms push-ups?[/QUOTE]
whatever floats your little boat.
buoyancy floats mine.
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;812541]Cool.
Oddly, I was using the very same def. You may utilize more oxygen by horse, but you’re not necessarily signifcantly affecting its distribution to your muscles, unless my understanding of anaerobic exercise and biology is lacking (a distinct possibility).
The bolded part is a non-sequitur. You say it’s a great test for fitness because it’s a test for endurance. Check Dictionary.com again: endurance and fitness are different.
Plus, for people who practice this horse, unless they are doing a personal best each time, they’re not actually going to be going to be utilizing a great deal more extra oxygen than if they were just standing up.
There are lots of people here who don’t even do CMA. It’s part of the flavour of the forum, and one reason why many people actually like it and come here so often.
I’ve done wing chun, tai chi and dabbled in a Hsing yi based eclectic art and been shown the basics of I-chuan (well, taikiken which may not qualify as CMA as it has its own slant). The wing chun has a totally different horse. The tai chi didn’t emphasize the horse, and certainly not for any length of time. The Hsing yi didn’t use it. The I-chuan had a horse but not the classic one you are talking about. Strangely enough, the only arts I’ve done that have concentrated on it were aikido and karate: neither of course Chinese!
In essence the horse and a crouch are very different, functionally, physically and theoretically.
Fair enough. My understanding of the purpose of this challenge is different to yours. I didn’t realize it was supposed to be some competition: a challenge to yourself, not to others. I thought it was more of a fitness standard for the forum: some base level we can all try for / aspire to / maintain. If it’s a competition, **** that! Seven, GDA, Vash, Ironfist, Samurai Jack and Toby are the winners! Everyone knows that! :D[/QUOTE]
Hello again Mr. Punch! Great discussion!
I cant figure out how to use the multiquote yet so bare with me please.
For the record, I am discussing the horse stance as a viable test to include in the fitness challenge merely on principle, as I really dont care and prob will not participate either way. Now with that said let me further clarify my position:
My contention is that endurance (in this case static muscular endurance) IS a part of fitness and that the horse stance tests this quite well. I think I should have found a better definition of fitness as dictionary.com’s is rather broad. Perhaps I am reading into the definition incorrectly, but it seems to exclude any anaerobic exercise as anaerobic exercise does not require oxygen to supply energy to the muscles. So that was my bad.
As far as one “needing to achieve a personal best” everytime for the horse to be of benefit, I believe this is incorrect. One only need change the stimulus to achieve the training effect. Changing height, feet width, adding extra weight, etc. will all elicit training adaptations.
Also, remember that a horse stance need not be low and wide to be a horse stance. Any posture that is evenly weighted and feet roughly parallel to each other is a horse stance. Therefore I stand by my statment that nearly all MA have the horse stance, including wing chun, tai chi, and i-chuan, although I would conceed that I do not believe Hsing-i has a horse stance…
As to the challenge or competition part of it. What would be the purpose of creating a thread and discussing standardizing a fitness test if it were not to create an atmosphere of freindly competition? I agree that ultimately one should “challenge” oneself but I see the purpose of this thread as motivating its members via (friendly) competition.
Thanks!
-Blake
[QUOTE=SouthernTiger;812659]Hello again Mr. Punch! Great discussion![/quote]Ta.
Fair enough. I don’t have time to train regularly in anything right now, so I may well not be doing it either.
I think repeated exercise like running is endurance and part of fitness… but static endurance isn’t.
Go ahead - I look forward to you finding a definition of fitness that includes static endurance like horse. Then we can see who agrees with it!
That seems reasonable, but again gives rise to the question as to what’s reasonable for it in a fitness standard.
That seems particularly like back-pedalling however! It’s either a horse stance or it isn’t! For a start, you said it was primarily a CMA stance, and I gave examples from JMA. For another thing wing chun’s stance cannot be equated with horse stance. The legs are turned in and the dynamics when used in motion are completely different (although incidentally, from my old-school JMA practice the horse is an isokinetic stance not an isometric, and since the wing chun stance is used actively that means it could compare more closely than most standard CMA horses to the JMA one). As I said, while I concede Tai Chi has a horse it’s not trained in any timescale that’s comparable to the test you’re suggesting IME, and although I-Chuan’s is, that’s so high as to give most, say, Hung Gar practitioners the screaming heebie-jeebies if you suggested that that was a horse at all.
Er… as I suggested: to motivate, challenge and improve yourself.
Fair enough. My understanding of the purpose of this challenge is different to yours. Didn’t I say that before?! You Americans would compete for your Moms! 
This thread seems to have died off… I’m gonna go for some of these exercises over this week and post some results.
Might I suggest that we hold off posting until we’ve got the results on all (most?/some?) of the exercises? Otherwise it’s going to become one huge convoluted mass blog tangle of a thread!
[QUOTE=Drake;812137]The Army does a 3-even PT test. Pushups, situps, and a 2-mile run. Pushups and the run vary in scores between males and females, and all three vary by age group. I can link you guys to this table if interested. There are also hard and fast rules about the test as well, such as how pushups/situps are done, etc.[/QUOTE]Yes, link please!
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;813488]Yes, link please! :)[/QUOTE]
Ok, this links to a PDF of the APFT scoring tables. http://web.mit.edu/armyrotc/documents/APFT.pdf
And the rules are as follows… we actually have to say all of this to the testees, every time, regardless of how many times they’ve taken this test… I’ll edit it a bit for brevity…
"THE PUSH-UP EVENT MEASURES THE ENDURANCE OF THE CHEST, SHOULDER, AND TRICEPS MUSCLES. ON THE COMMAND ‘GET SET,’ ASSUME THE FRONT-LEANING REST POSITION BY PLACING YOUR HANDS WHERE THEY ARE COMFORTABLE FOR YOU. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART. WHEN VIEWED FROM THE SIDE, YOUR BODY SHOULD FORM A GENERALLY STRAIGHT LINE FROM YOUR SHOULDERS TO YOUR ANKLES. ON THE COMMAND ‘GO,’ BEGIN THE PUSH-UP BY BENDING YOUR ELBOWS AND LOWERING YOUR ENTIRE BODY AS A SINGLE UNIT UNTIL YOUR UPPER ARMS ARE AT LEAST PARALLEL TO THE GROUND. THEN, RETURN TO THE STARTING POSITION BY RAISING YOUR ENTIRE BODY UNTIL YOUR ARMS ARE FULLY EXTENDED. YOUR BODY MUST REMAIN RIGID IN A GENERALLY STRAIGHT LINE AND MOVE AS A UNIT WHILE PERFORMING EACH REPETITION. AT THE END OF EACH REPETITION, THE SCORER WILL STATE THE NUMBER OF REPETITIONS YOU HAVE COMPLETED CORRECTLY. IF YOU FAIL TO KEEP YOUR BODY GENERALLY STRAIGHT, TO LOWER YOUR WHOLE BODY UNTIL YOUR UPPER ARMS ARE AT LEAST PARALLEL TO THE GROUND, OR TO EXTEND YOUR ARMS COMPLETELY, THAT REPETITION WILL NOT COUNT, AND THE SCORER WILL REPEAT THE NUMBER OF THE LAST CORRECTLY PERFORMED REPETITION. IF YOU FAIL TO PERFORM THE FIRST TEN PUSH-UPS CORRECTLY, THE SCORER WILL TELL YOU TO GO TO YOUR KNEES AND WILL EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT YOUR MISTAKES ARE. YOU WILL THEN BE SENT TO THE END OF THE LINE TO BE RETESTED. AFTER THE FIRST 10 PUSH-UPS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED AND COUNTED, HOWEVER, NO RESTARTS ARE ALLOWED. THE TEST WILL CONTINUE, AND ANY INCORRECTLY PERFORMED PUSH-UPS WILL NOT BE COUNTED. AN ALTERED, FRONT-LEANING REST POSITION IS THE ONLY AUTHORIZED REST POSITION. THAT IS, YOU MAY SAG IN THE MIDDLE OR FLEX YOUR BACK. WHEN FLEXING YOUR BACK, YOU MAY BEND YOUR KNEES, BUT NOT TO SUCH AN EXTENT THAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING MOST OF YOUR BODY WEIGHT WITH YOUR LEGS. IF THIS OCCURS, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED. YOU MUST RETURN TO, AND PAUSE IN, THE CORRECT STARTING POSITION BEFORE CONTINUING. IF YOU REST ON THE GROUND OR RAISE EITHER HAND OR FOOT FROM THE GROUND, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED. YOU MAY REPOSITION YOUR HANDS AND/OR FEET DURING THE EVENT AS LONG AS THEY REMAIN IN CONTACT WITH THE GROUND AT ALL TIMES. CORRECT PERFORMANCE IS IMPORTANT. YOU WILL HAVE TWO MINUTES IN WHICH TO DO AS MANY PUSH-UPS AS YOU CAN.
"THE SIT-UP EVENT MEASURES THE ENDURANCE OF THE ABDOMINAL AND HIP-FLEXOR MUSCLES. ON THE COMMAND “GET SET”, ASSUME THE STARTING POSITION BY LYING ON YOUR BACK WITH YOUR KNEES BENT AT A 90-DEGREE ANGLE. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART. ANOTHER PERSON WILL HOLD YOUR ANKLES WITH THE HANDS ONLY. NO OTHER METHOD OF BRACING OR HOLDING THE FEET IS AUTHORIZED. THE HEEL IS THE ONLY PART OF YOUR FOOT THAT MUST STAY IN CONTACT WITH THE GROUND. YOUR FINGERS MUST BE INTERLOCKED BEHIND YOUR HEAD AND THE BACKS OF YOUR HANDS MUST TOUCH THE GROUND. YOUR ARMS AND ELBOWS NEED NOT TOUCH THE GROUND. ON THE COMMAND “GO”, BEGIN RAISING YOUR UPPER BODY FORWARD TO, OR BEYOND, THE VERTICAL POSITION. THE VERTICAL POSITION MEANS THAT THE BASE OF YOUR NECK IS ABOVE THE BASE OF YOUR SPINE. AFTER YOU HAVE REACHED OR SURPASSED THE VERTICAL POSITION, LOWER YOUR BODY UNTIL THE BOTTOM OF YOUR SHOULDER BLADES TOUCH THE GROUND. YOUR HEAD, HANDS, ARMS, OR ELBOWS DO NOT HAVE TO TOUCH THE GROUND. AT THE END OF EACH REPETITION, THE SCORER WILL STATE THE NUMBER OF SIT-UPS YOU HAVE CORRECTLY COMPLETED. A REPETITION WILL NOT COUNT IF YOU FAIL TO REACH THE VERTICAL POSITION, FAIL TO KEEP YOUR FINGERS INTERLOCKED BEHIND YOUR HEAD, ARCH OR BOW YOUR BACK AND RAISE YOUR BUTTOCKS OFF THE GROUND TO RAISE YOUR UPPER BODY, OR LET YOUR KNEES EXCEED A 90-DEGREE ANGLE. IF A REPETITION DOES NOT COUNT, THE SCORER WILL REPEAT THE NUMBER OF YOUR LAST CORRECTLY PERFORMED SIT-UP. THE UP POSITION IS THE ONLY AUTHORIZED REST POSITION. IF YOU STOP AND REST IN THE DOWN (STARTING) POSITION, THE EVENT WILL BE TERMINATED. AS LONG AS YOU MAKE A CONTINUOUS PHYSICAL EFFORT TO SIT UP, THE EVENT WILL NOT BE TERMINATED. YOU MAY NOT USE YOUR HANDS OR ANY OTHER MEANS TO PULL OR PUSH YOURSELF UP TO THE UP (RESTING) POSITION OR TO HOLD YOURSELF IN THE REST POSITION. IF YOU DO SO, YOUR PERFORMANCE IN THE EVENT WILL BE TERMINATED. CORRECT PERFORMANCE IS IMPORTANT. YOU WILL HAVE TWO MINUTES TO PERFORM AS MANY SIT-UPS AS YOU CAN.
"THE TWO-MILE RUN IS USED TO ASSESS YOUR AEROBIC FITNESS AND YOUR LEG MUSCLES’ ENDURANCE. YOU MUST COMPLETE THE RUN WITHOUT ANY PHYSICAL HELP. AT THE START, ALL SOLDIERS WILL LINE UP BEHIND THE STARTING LINE. ON THE COMMAND ‘GO,’ THE CLOCK WILL START. YOU WILL BEGIN RUNNING AT YOUR OWN PACE. TO RUN THE REQUIRED TWO MILES, YOU MUST COMPLETE
(describe the number of laps, start and finish points, and course layout).
YOU ARE BEING TESTED ON YOUR ABILITY TO COMPLETE THE 2-MILE COURSE IN THE SHORTEST TIME POSSIBLE. ALTHOUGH WALKING IS AUTHORIZED, IT IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. IF YOU ARE PHYSICALLY HELPED IN ANY WAY (FOR EXAMPLE, PULLED, PUSHED, PICKED UP, AND/OR CARRIED) OR LEAVE THE DESIGNATED RUNNING COURSE FOR ANY REASON, YOU WILL BE DISQUALIFIED. (IT IS LEGAL TO PACE A SOLDIER DURING THE 2-MILE RUN. AS LONG AS THERE IS NO PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH THE PACED SOLDIER AND IT DOES NOT PHYSICALLY HINDER OTHER SOLDIERS TAKING THE TEST, THE PRACTICE OF RUNNING AHEAD OF, ALONG SIDE OF, OR BEHIND THE TESTED SOLDIER, WHILE SERVING AS A PACER, IS PERMITTED. CHEERING OR CALLING OUT THE ELAPSED TIME IS ALSO PERMITTED.) THE NUMBER ON YOUR CHEST IS FOR IDENTIFICATION. YOU MUST MAKE SURE IT IS VISIBLE AT ALL TIMES. TURN IN YOUR NUMBER WHEN YOU FINISH THE RUN. THEN, GO TO THE AREA DESIGNATED FOR THE COOL-DOWN AND STRETCH. DO NOT STAY NEAR THE SCORERS OR THE FINISH LINE AS THIS MAY INTERFERE WITH THE TESTING.
I left some admin stuff in there in case you folks wanted to make this a legit event for your own schools…
Cheers Drake.
DLed that and when I realised I couldn’t understand the chart, I realised it was time for bed!
BTW, surprised they still do the old-school sit-ups: I won’t cos of lower spine issues.