I personally train in snake style and yang style tai chi chuan(which dont have a ranking system) but i have trained a little in shotokan and pakua which have belts.I have seen through my own experiences that the places that have belts are students that are plaqued with what i call THE BELT SYNDROME(some people call it the black belt syndrome)symptoms include a reluctance to train,fear of losing to someone with a lower belt
and a know it all attitude and a belief that your system is better.I have seen this to be a serious problem in all the dojos that have belts such as i stated before.I believe and i have seen through my own experiances that dojos that aquire the belt ranking system have students plaqued with the belt syndrome.Like i said i study tai chi and snake(which dont have ranks)And i have found that studying with tai chi students that are not plaqued by the same syndrome for the simple reason that they dont believe in belts.And i have also seen that it allows them including my self to focus more on our art and not whats around our waist.
When i went to study pa kua which had ranks I had many bad experiances with people afflicted with this syndrome.When i was a yellow belt i was practicing inside my dojo i was not wearing my belt at the moment but there was a gray belt which walked by and asked me my rank,i told him yellow and he said “oh i could kick your ass”
EXAMPLES LIKE THIS HAPPENED ON A CONSTANT BASIS IN DOJOS THAT HAVE BELTS OR SOME SORT OF RANK SYSTEM.That is just one of the many examples i have experienced.Ex:at the time i was a good at tai chi and snake so when i became yellow belt at pa kua they let me spar with any belt including black.WELL LET ME TELL YOU POEPLE I EASILY DEFEATED ALL THE STUDENTS THAT HAD BEEN STUDYING UNDER BELTS OR RANKS INCLUDING THE BLACK BELTS.
Maybe im wrong but i have seen nothing but negativity coming from people who attend dojos with rank.
I know you guys have a lot to say on this subject so let me know
PEACE OUT,ARROGANCE AND BELT SYNDROME LEAD TO DEFEAT
Hey snake guy
Hey snake guy–
–I see you don’t like the belt ranking system–it was my understanding that typically, CMA schools don’t use it. There are usually levels to be attained in styles that have a lot to teach–like Hung Gar–but to my knowledge those schools that use a belt or sash color to denote rank or achievement do it on their own. Often it is done by a school that has a big concentration on tournaments and since the Korean and Japanese tournaments are usually laid out by belt color it’s easy for the CMA students if they have a sash or belt system.
I teach a Kungfu/Lion Dance club for kids. They started it and they run it–I just teach the classes as a volunteer. At one of their earlier meetings about 6 years ago they decided to have a color sash awarded at each level. That’s something they wanted to do. In the class or in demos or in tournaments I allow them to wear any color sash they want–so long as it dosen’t clash with their uniform–and I teach them that the sash has practical purpose–ie, lower back support when practicing low stances or especially when using heavy weapons, in some cases keeping your pants up or closing your tunic if you have one that doesn’t button.
So, I guess I agree with you in the case where the student is taught that a belt is the goal and an accurate measure of training experience and level of achievement. I think it can work if the students are really reaching that level. But it seems to me that what you have been experiencing has more to do with encountering schools that teach an over-abundance of ego and false-pride and lack humility.
good luck–don’t let the turkeys get you down.
chuck
In the CLF school I attend there are belt rankings. My sifu started it in the 1960s because there are so many things to learn, he decided to systematize it in such a way.
Personally, I don’t care about belt levels. All I care about is what skill level I can achieve. I have also trained in Mantis schools in Taiwan that had no belt rankings at all, so one way or the other doesn’t bother me. Whether I test for rankings or not, I’m still at whatever level I’m at and trying to reach higher.
I think it just depends not only on the school itself, but on the individual student how his attitude will be affected by a belt or not. I’ve also seen in one of the above-mentioned Mantis schools with no rankings, nevertheless there was still rankings in order of when you joined the school. Even if someone barely trained and was not as good, if they joined earlier than you they were your Shr-hsiung (si-hing, older kung-fu brother). And a few would try to lord it over you because of that.
Jim
Hi all
snakey, could you tell me a little about your snak training i.e where and how long you have trained.
I practice wing chun and my club has sashes that you can receive if you want. I choose not to because i dont see the point. it does however iritate me when people worse than me but who have sashes think they are better just cos they got a pretty coloured sash.
to ish
Well you know ish snake is not the only art i do my main art is yang style tai chi chuan which i have been doing for some time know and i learn tai chi from a local dojo my sifu is the diciple of grandmaster ck chu of manhatten the long time rival of cc chen.But to answer your question about snake style i have studied snake from correspondence videos and from various poeple(not masters)I started learning snake because i always had in interest in learning an animal style but i wanted something that was special.I choose snake fist because i wanted to do something different then from other people are doing since most people who do practice animal kung fu dont do pure animal they do it mixed with other animal like hung gar or choy lay fut.
Bad luck
Sharkey - it seems to me you have just had a run of bad luck. Both of the schools I have studied at (both Traditional CMA) have had belts and I have not experienced what you have. The belts have meant only one thing (and this is not only my opinion but what I have observed in the others I have trained with) - it shows where you are in your training IN THE SCHOOL ONLY. I can look at a person with a certain belt on at my school and I know what they should know.
And - of course - it means nothing outside of my school. Not even among the various branches. Only within my school among my training brothers and sisters.
It doesn’t say they are a better fighter than me - it just means that they have passed a certain test. That is all. It means that if I have a question on a form I don’t have to go around asking people for help who simply haven’t gotten that far.
It’s a shame that you have had such lousy reactions to the granting of belts. I personaly have nothing against them
“The Wolf does not regard the barking dog”
One other thing
I have also found that if I am helping someone of “lower rank” it lends credence to what I am saying if they can see the visible markings from Sifu that I know what I am talking about. Newer students who don’t know anything about Martial Arts often want some affirmation that I am not full of sh*t. Mt belt says, “Well, at least Sifu thinks he knows at least more than me about this art” 
“The Wolf does not regard the barking dog”
When I open my kwoon, I’ll have no rankings other than that of “recognized lineage holder”.
People respect SKILL.
I’m pretty big into JMA so I’m familiar with much of what you say. Even though my style uses belts I can tell you from experience they don’t mean much other than a quick way to recognize skill level/groupings of people.
That’s right, it’s not the belt, it’s the person.
Sounds like you’ve had some bad experience though with swell-headed people who think that just because they have a higher ranking they’re automatically better than everyone below them. These people aren’t true martial artists, IMO, but weekend warriors. They can be found in every style and frankly MA in general would be much better off without this kind of riff-raff.
My two yen.
K. Mark Hoover
its not the belt its the school
i train in 8step mantis which was systemized by master sun. i have found nothing but honesty and a willness to help from the students with a “higher” sash then me. i think that has to do a lot with the teacher not just the students. the sifu, sensai, or whatever you call your MA instructor should from the start stress humility and honesty. if they do not do this people often run into these problems that you have run into snakey.
I agree
Many people here are right about the fact that it may not be the problem of the belt but of the person. For students who enter the school ahead of another, there is an unspoken feeling that those before should be better yet all this rely on the person.
I notice that much of the responses is from the point of view of the lower belt individuals when communicating with higher belts, yet for those with higher belts also feel the pressure of losing to a lower belt student.
If there were no belt then perhaps the shame would be less obvious. Yet this is still base on individuals
Belt problem
Won’t you think it would be a problem if a higher ranking studnet loses consistently to a newbie? Three is more than shame that is at stke - more so the quality of the teaching.
Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com
Ego
That is of course true if you had two students who never trained before they get to your school. One newbie has an extra year or two of training then he should beat the newer student - hands down. BUT what if someone with many years of training changes schools? What then? He comes in as a newbie but he actually has more experience (in a different art) from the senior. What then. The teaching has nothing to do with it.
“The Wolf does not regard the barking dog”
Re: Belts
Someone i know is a black belt
he remembers the form work etc and studies it hard for each of the exams he has then after he passes he forgets it. he did tae kwan do. anyway i thought it was disturbing that this happens. Surely there are some ppl out there in belt systems dedicated to their style such that they will practice old forms learnt that aren’t required for the exam for the next promotion in ranking. right???
888
It’s no different to the way kids study at school. Cram for an exam, then forget the material by the next day. I would have thought that if you were bothering to train in the MA though that you would try a bit harder.
cxxx:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity
Wow, those must be easy tests. We always have to perform all our previous katas everytime we rank up.
You know, I keep hearing these horror stories about these kinds of chump schools that bend over backwards to make everything easy. I’ve been very fortunate that in the two schools I’ve trained in it was nothing like that. We actually have to earn our rank…
K. Mark Hoover
what then?
Well, for starters that “newbie” should be ranked appropriately. For example, if your final year in medicine and you change “schools”, it is not as though you’ll be put in first year is it.
If it applies to the education system of other disaplins - why should martial arts be any different.
Just a bit of common sense will give you the answer!
Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com
i think they meant different style of school.
n/t
even if
the new student doesn’t have to have previous experience to make the point. Just because i was talking about a higher belt being defeated by a lower belt doesn’t mean that the lower belt was a “newbie,” they both could have trained for years but it’s just that one is a better fighter or performer regardless of the belt rank or years spent.
Ego
I’m with Iron Silk and Nobody.
If you come from a completely different style - then no, you should not (in my opinion) be ranked any higher than a true newbie. You will probably rise faster than a newbie simply because you will have a deeper understanding of Martial Arts in general but you may very well know nothing at all about the new art you are studying.
Imagine going from a BJJ school to a VERY traditional Shaolin School or from a very hard external system to a very soft internal system.
The differences are great enough that you may very well beat the crap out of someone who outranks on your first day but you don’t necessarily deserve a higher rank in that school than everyone else who started that day.