The hands we use...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

In the WSL rant thread :slight_smile: Graham posted something interesting from a PB article about what some of the Sau motions are for in his teaching.

[QUOTE=Graham H;1245367]Yes there is only one Tan Sau. It trains the punch…
Here are some ideas in his own words…

Tan sau trains your punch
Bong sau open the way for striking
Fook sau trains your punch
Pak sau open the way for striking
Kwan sau trains your punch
Tok sau (we dont have)
Poon sau (exchange of force)
Fak sau (striking)
Lap sau (open the way for striking)
Yee gee kim yum ma (training stance .. to conditioning the foot
and knee position for supporting the punch)
Jum sau trains your punch[/QUOTE]

Which made me think about what we use in our Chi Sau training, and how this might translate to actual use. Of course, it’s clear that different lineages do Chi Sau with different reasoning in mind, but in my lineage (as an example), we’re looking to learn how to strike whilst dealing with force. The Chi Sau training leads to the Lat Sau training which leads to the sparring, which (one hopes) gives a good foundation for real world use.

So my question is (to anyone, not just the PB guys), when you train Chi Sau and when you train whatever other drills to help you put your WC/VT/WT into real world use, what ‘hands’ (so to speak) are you using?

I said of the PB training:

[QUOTE=BPWT;1245370]Yes, I read that interview with PB, and it’s an interesting take on things for sure.

From the list you quote, it makes me think that PB’s method really is focused on punching, with only a few of the art’s hand/arm movements/motions as support. So primarily: punching, with just pak and lap as main support (with bong used also in the lap sau drill/cycle).[/QUOTE]

So in my lineage, our Chi Sau training (and here I include the Bong/Lap cycle and its progressions, Poon Sau, our Chi Sau sections, Gor Sau, and so on), and thus also in our Lat Sau training, we look to understand and learn how to use (often based on handling force), the following:

Tan Sau Bong Sau Fook Sau Wu Sau Man Sau Kau Sau Jum Sau
Gaun Sau Gwat Sau Jut Sau Huen Sau Pak Sau Lan Sau Tok Sau
Tie Sau Gum Sau Kwan Sau Biu Sau

Plus, of course, the various striking techniques using the hands, feet, knees, elbows, shoulder.

2

[QUOTE=BPWT;1245473]In the WSL rant thread :slight_smile: Graham posted something interesting from a PB article about what some of the Sau motions are for in his teaching.

Which made me think about what we use in our Chi Sau training, and how this might translate to actual use. Of course, it’s clear that different lineages do Chi Sau with different reasoning in mind, but in my lineage (as an example), we’re looking to learn how to strike whilst dealing with force. The Chi Sau training leads to the Lat Sau training which leads to the sparring, which (one hopes) gives a good foundation for real world use.

So my question is (to anyone, not just the PB guys), when you train Chi Sau and when you train whatever other drills to help you put your WC/VT/WT into real world use, what ‘hands’ (so to speak) are you using?

I said of the PB training:

So in my lineage, our Chi Sau training (and here I include the Bong/Lap cycle and its progressions, Poon Sau, our Chi Sau sections, Gor Sau, and so on), and thus also in our Lat Sau training, we look to understand and learn how to use (often based on handling force), the following:

Tan Sau Bong Sau Fook Sau Wu Sau Man Sau Kau Sau Jum Sau
Gaun Sau Gwat Sau Jut Sau Huen Sau Pak Sau Lan Sau Tok Sau
Tie Sau Gum Sau Kwan Sau Biu Sau

Plus, of course, the various striking techniques using the hands, feet, knees, elbows, shoulder.[/QUOTE]

:eek::eek::eek::eek:
That sure is a lot of sau’s to…er.. use.

3

Left out the most important one ; )
The punch.

4

[QUOTE=T_Ray;1245474]:eek::eek::eek::eek: That sure is a lot of sau’s to…er.. use.[/QUOTE]

All the things from the forms, you know :wink: (some of which have an obvious use, some of which perhaps are more conceptual, some training devices that also include conceptual use and obvious application).

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1245474]Left out the most important one ; )
The punch.[/QUOTE]

Of course :slight_smile: But that’s a strike with the hand (closed hand) :slight_smile:

5

Why ask the question about drills rather than fighting?

6

[QUOTE=BPWT;1245478]All the things from the forms, you know :wink: (some of which have an obvious use, some of which perhaps are more conceptual, some training devices that also include conceptual use and obvious application).[/QUOTE]

Right… To have ready to apply against all the possible moves the other guy might do eh?

7

[QUOTE=guy b.;1245479]Why ask the question about drills rather than fighting?[/QUOTE]

Just because if you can’t use these things in drills (set drills, free-flowing drills based off of cycles, etc), you probably won’t be able to use them in fighting either.

We start with drills, to aid us in our fighting.

8

[QUOTE=T_Ray;1245481]Right… To have ready to apply against all the possible moves the other guy might do eh?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t say “to apply against all possible moves”, as this implies technique against technique - which most lineages would say is wrong.

I’d rather say it is to help you understand how to deal with different force (direction of force, amount of force) and the varying positions that lead to this and come from this.

9

[QUOTE=BPWT;1245485]I wouldn’t say “to apply against all possible moves”, as this implies technique against technique - which most lineages would say is wrong.

I’d rather say it is to help you understand how to deal with different force (direction of force, amount of force) and the varying positions that lead to this and come from this.[/QUOTE]
Well… Good luck with that :slight_smile:

10

[QUOTE=T_Ray;1245486]Well… Good luck with that :)[/QUOTE]

Ummm… thanks (I think). :smiley:

So, what do you use in your training? From the PB clips, I see a lot of Pak Sau and punch. Lots of Wu Sau, some Bong Sau, some Lap.

What else do you guys train in class (in Chi Sau or whatever other training)?

Tell me about your hands!!! :smiley:

11

[QUOTE=BPWT;1245487]Ummm… thanks (I think). :smiley:

So, what do you use in your training? From the PB clips, I see a lot of Pak Sau and punch. Lots of Wu Sau, some Bong Sau, some Lap.

What else do you guys train in class (in Chi Sau or whatever other training)?

Tell me about your hands!!! :D[/QUOTE]

We certinly don’t have anywhere near the variety of stuff you guys do.

In comparison, I’m sure you would be quite bored with the simplistic approach of WSLPBVT. :slight_smile:

http://www.northwalesvingtsun.com/North_Wales_Ving_Tsun/Philipp_Bayer_Articles/Entries/2012/12/17_Basics.html

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[QUOTE=BPWT;1245483]Just because if you can’t use these things in drills (set drills, free-flowing drills based off of cycles, etc), you probably won’t be able to use them in fighting either.

We start with drills, to aid us in our fighting.[/QUOTE]

Why do you assume that what you do in drills is directly transferable to fighting?

13

[QUOTE=T_Ray;1245488]We certinly don’t have anywhere near the variety of stuff you guys do.

In comparison, I’m sure you would be quite bored with the simplistic approach of WSLPBVT. :slight_smile:

http://www.northwalesvingtsun.com/North_Wales_Ving_Tsun/Philipp_Bayer_Articles/Entries/2012/12/17_Basics.html[/QUOTE]

Well, everything should start simple :slight_smile: But working the basics is never really that boring, I think (if you’re working them with a partner).

Thanks for the link - interesting read… but don’t understand PB’s take on WT at all. :wink: We spend far more time hitting wall bags, heavy bags, pads and partners wearing pads than we do hitting the ‘air’. Though punching the air does have its place too.

Edit: I’m forever forgetting to pack the chest protector we often use in training. My chest is constantly bruised as a result - when I go the gym I have to wear t-shirts rather than a vest for fear of looking like I get mugged countless times a week.

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[QUOTE=guy b.;1245489]Why do you assume that what you do in drills is directly transferable to fighting?[/QUOTE]

The drills start off light and set (following a pattern), and then progress to using more force (hitting harder) and being less set (being free to move off in whatever direction is needed - that is to say, outside of what was previously the set pattern).

The aim is train this in a way that becomes transferable to fighting (as much as is possible of course).

But you have to start somewhere. If you taught a beginner how to punch (the technical punching method in your system), and then said “Now try to fight with it,” the results would be, well, not so good.

Better to start the beginner with how to punch, and then get them working on drills that incorporate timing, intercepting, footwork, distancing, etc… and then see how they do in a more open setting.

But… tell me about your hands! :smiley: Which do you train within your CS, for example?

15

[QUOTE=guy b.;1245489]Why do you assume that what you do in drills is directly transferable to fighting?[/QUOTE]

If your drills don’t translate to fighting then what the fcuk are you doing them for:confused: let me guess its abstract:rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=BPWT;1245487]Ummm… thanks (I think). :smiley:

So, what do you use in your training? From the PB clips, I see a lot of Pak Sau and punch. Lots of Wu Sau, some Bong Sau, some Lap.

What else do you guys train in class (in Chi Sau or whatever other training)?

Tell me about your hands!!! :D[/QUOTE]

I think this can be one problem with watching videos online - people sometimes only focus on shapes and techniques and not catch what’s most important: things like strategy, tactics, body methods/mechanics, etc.

I often times run class where I don’t mention ANY techniques except maybe what kind of attack your partner is throwing. But, I do mention things like reference points, leverage, centerline occupation, gate & box theories, descriptions of body mechanics, facing, etc.

Sure, I have to give descriptors for shapes when asked, like ‘this is a tan for disapating pressure on the bridge’, or '5-line pak sau’ or 'use biu jong sau to occupy space on center’. But like in my examples, everytime I have to give a technique name, I stress the concept behind the tool so they don’t focus only on the tool. I do this because I’ve learned that the more I talk about the shapes/techniques, the more the student focuses on only that and start thinking in terms of ‘doing moves’ vs. understanding and focusing on what’s really important - the core principles/concepts of WC. Similar to when people watch clips on youtube, see what techniques are being used and then ask what ‘hands’ people focus on in class. :stuck_out_tongue: (sorry, couldn’t resist)

Simple answer: all of them and none of them. But then, that’s not really a simple answer either :wink:

17

So after I stopped laughing , still laughing !! Are these your hands in chi sao ? ; )

http://youtu.be/faDIYG6QZsY

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[quote=k gledhill;1245528]so after i stopped laughing , still laughing !! Are these your hands in chi sao ? ; )

http://youtu.be/fadiyg6qzsy[/quote]

ROFL :smiley:

rofl

19

The hands we use

[QUOTE=Shads;1245500]If your drills don’t translate to fighting then what the fcuk are you doing them for:confused: let me guess its abstract:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Shads , this guys all have their own way of doing chi sau , chi sau is the wing chun version of pushing hands like in tai chi , the difference is that tai chi you would push against eachother , that ’ s why its called pushing hands for tai chi . Trying to push our partners off balance , but in return our partners can disolve our pushing and send the power back to us and we send it back vise versa .

Chi Sau we roll as we are doing chi sau both clock wise and counter wise , during those rolls we can attempt to throw our partners off balance by trapping their hands , and apply hand strikes to any part of their upperbody like face , chest , or we can just choose to throw our partners off balance . By using our hands and arms .

And the way they ’ re explaining their own way of doing chi sao is confusing , to me a punch is a punch . For chi sao the bong , taun , fook is used , if you know your wing chun hand strikes you can use it too .

Shads , if you ’ re training in WC now ? Use what your sifu has taught you . Some of these WC hand techniques taun , bong , fook , downward and cross pak sao , bil jee , low bong , kwan sao , are all used for certain defensive moves , while the vertical fist , back fist , vertical , horizontal , downward palm , bil jee , side of the hand , elbows , knees , as you know is used for striking . bil jee as an example can be used for blocking and jabbing at your opponents eyes or any weak spots .
If you know your WC kicks too , you should have no problem .

The Sil Lum Tao , Chum Kiu , and Bil Jee all have different qualities and techniques , design for anybody to learn and use if they need to . But like any other martial arts system or style practice is the mainthing . People can make people confusing so if you know the WC hand defensive techniques , striking techniques , kicks , and how to use elbows and knees , you should have no problem . So if you know WC in and out you should be able to know what I ’ m really talking about .

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1245528]So after I stopped laughing , still laughing !! Are these your hands in chi sao ? ; )

http://youtu.be/faDIYG6QZsY[/QUOTE]

Well, I can’t comment on the Italian lovers in the lake… :slight_smile:

But the WT in the clip is primarily just working Bong, Lap and Punch (so not an attempt to use all the hands). The point of the drill, in this case, is to do it at speed - to get you to ‘touch and go’. It is simply a drill/exercise for reaction.

So it takes one of the ideas behind Bong, and gets you to play with it without the ‘prolonged contact’ that people sometimes feel, incorrectly IMO, is in Chi Sau. So just one drill (actually, just a part of a drill) and done in a particular way.

Here’s a clip that shows a slower, more teaching-based approach, to using some WT ideas in Bong/Lap. And these included a few “add ins” to get you playing with a few different ‘hands’. This type of drill will also be ramped up once you’ve got the basics down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNPfcvosFGI

And little more detail here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXTxsd9CRKQ