Hakka Kung Fu consists of 3 styles Tong Long, Loong Yan and Pak Mei. And Tong Long divided into 4 branches Chow Gar, Chu Gar, Jook Lum and Tit Au( Iron Ox).
Wilson
Thank you !
Anyone know of resources on Hakka KF or more specifically the life of my Sigung Cheung Lai Chun?
(besides the book: Pak Mei Kung Fu by H.B. Un?)
Thanks again.
I’m not too sure of the ‘true’ facts on the histories of Hakka Kung Fu, but this is what I have been related to by my sifu. Apparntly, hakka people, not being too popular with the rest of the Chinese wondered around China as nomads.
Being such, there was a need for self defence. Thus Hakka Kung Fu was born.
Southern Mantis, Pak Mei and whatever all came from the Hakka people. So if you like, they are all just different parts of the same whole.
Anyway, now to my Si-Tai-Gung Lao Shui and Si-Gung Ip shui. No, Lao Shui had no children of his own. But yes, Ip Shui and Lao Shui are related by some way that I’ve just forgotten, if you want to know how they are related, e-mail me, I’ll ask sifu in the morning.
From what I here (note, I practise Chow Gar so this could be bias)… Lao Shui had many students. One of which is the grandmaster of Chu Gar. Apparently, the name Chow in hakka sounds very similar to Chu, so this Chu guy changed the actual spelling giving himself the title of grandmaster. Jook Lum is also another variant of the system… Obviously, this all happened straight after Lao Shui’s death.
Note, the only system of southern mantis which has no link to Chow Gar in Iron Ox. The style was/is completely seperate from Chow Gar. But note this also, In the Chow Gar system…A form from the Iron Ox system is taught… So there has been trade in techniques but the origins differ.
Also, does anyone actually do Chu Gar? I have a few questions on the way you guy’s do your Sam Bo Jin form…
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kevin Barkman:
[b]Greetings Short Hand Brothers!
There was a previous post about Lam Yiu Kwai, Lao Sui, and Cheung Lai Cheun all hanging out in the same teahouse in Hong Kong which sent me into hours of research trying to find connections between these three in the resources I have. I found out that all three were born in the “Wai Yeung” village/province of Guangdong. This is in the East River area (Tung Fung) - and close to Lau Fou Shen Mountain. I have been unable to locate this site to determine its exact location (through atlas’s / internet) and population size. Knowing the pop. would help in either supporting my theory or detracting from it.
I remember it was said the Lum and Cheung were cousins.
It appears that all three were born at the same time as well (LYK in 1876, CLC in 1880). I speculate Lao Sui was born around 1878, when I do the math subtracting various dates posted in his life 1878 - 1942?)
LYK and CLC were known as “the Two Tigers of East River” but no mention of Lao Sui. Also, from the speculation out there, the Lam Family studied from the “Hai Fung” Monk (who IKF names as "Huang Nian Jiao). This same Monk taught a man named “Liang Hua Su Ren” who taught CLC. Of course, there is the Monk named Tai Yuk as well (at Lau Fou Shen).
It was also said that Lum and Cheung learned some forms or a system called Sam Bo Tyui from a traveller called Hoi Fung Si. So, I believe Lum and Cheung are Kung Fu fanatics who would pursuit as many arts as they could to achieve personal best.
From the magazine articles out there on Chu Gar (written by Gene Chen and Paul Whitrod), they say Lao Sui learned his Art from a Wong Fook Gao (who was also born in Wai Yeung). However, I believe the source said that all three also learned from a “Chung Yel Jung” - the Poisen Snake, in Hong Kong. Is there dispute in the S. Mantis community over who Lao Sui learned from? It seems that Lum Sang is not connected with Lao Sui’s lineage. Much of the info I have comes from the huge Southern Praying Mantis historical collaboration on the Net (by F. Blanco). I am wondering about this connection. Also, I am wondering about the possibility of Chung Yel Jung being called “the poisen snake” and Lung Ying’s top form (one of) being called Poisen Snake Flicks / Hides Tongue.
Lung Ying’s forms are basically in 3 stages. From first form “16 moves” to the highest 7 routines of Plum Flower fist. Poison Snake Flicks Tongue is an intermediate form. It is one of the five original forms which Lum learned from Ta Yuk sim si.
Therefore (to sum), we have 3 kung-fu brothers, with a possible 4 shared teachers. The fact that Lung Ying does not mention Wong or Chung, to me suggests either a desire to seperate, or a completely seperate lineage.
It seems that Lum and Cheung shared many comment background yet develope into two individual systems. It is quite common to meet a Lung Ying and Bak Mei Student. My Sifu Chow Fook is an example.
Anyway, this is probably about as interesting as the dust balls in my closet to just about everyone except 10 people out there! Personally, I can’t get enough of it!
By the way - for all you die hard Bak Meirs and Dragoners, Chow Fook’s student in Hong Kong (CS Tang) has written a book on Lung Ying Mor-Kiew, which is now printed and can be purchased through their web-site (go to HK Chinese Martial Arts Association site). Haven’t seen it yet - just ordered it! Looks awesome!
Great, thanks for the info.
Cheers and Happy (Chinese) New Year to You!
Smashing Bridge Kevin
[/b][/quote]
Hi Wilson,
I wonder if you are a Lung Ying and Bai Mei brother. If you would share some of your views on the systems. I’m very interested in contacting students of these systems. Please feel free to contact me at sifu1@internorth.com
mantis108
Any new insights on this story? I find this story much more likely than the 5 elders story.
Regards, Lau
Kevin–Great stuffs and just want to say “thank you”. 
For all the chow gar guys, you guys should wake up, the only true and original art of southern praying mantis is CHU GAR TONG LONG, not chow gar, chow gar was from Chu Gar please ask sifu GENE CHAN and he will give you the true history of southern praying mantis and why the chow gar was a mistake from the past, CHU is name, not chow, maybe its time for chow gar lineage change their name back to the original name CHU GAR TONG LONG.
Revisiting this thread
Just some thoughts, I missed last time:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>There was a previous post about Lam Yiu Kwai, Lao Sui, and Cheung Lai Cheun all hanging out in the same teahouse in Hong Kong which sent me into hours of research trying to find connections between these three in the resources I have. I found out that all three were born in the “Wai Yeung” village/province of Guangdong. This is in the East River area (Tung Fung) - and close to Lau Fou Shen Mountain. I have been unable to locate this site to determine its exact location (through atlas’s / internet) and population size. Knowing the pop. would help in either supporting my theory or detracting from it.[/quote]
Guangdong is a province.
Wai Yeung - I think is either the alias of the East River region or the name of a county. I will have to check on that. It is quite common that people and places have aliases in China. That’s where the confusion comes in. The village that GM LYK was born in was call To Po Tau in Bor Low County.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>LYK and CLC were known as “the Two Tigers of East River” but no mention of Lao Sui. Also, from the speculation out there, the Lam Family studied from the “Hai Fung” Monk (who IKF names as "Huang Nian Jiao). This same Monk taught a man named “Liang Hua Su Ren” who taught CLC. Of course, there is the Monk named Tai Yuk as well (at Lau Fou Shen).[/quote]
Hoi Fung is also a place name. It is believed that Huang (Wong in Cantonese) might have been from or famous in Hoi Fung which is also alias of Chu Chou. It’s sort of like the De or Van De in European convention. Name is a big thing in Chinese culture. The more Names (titles as well) you have the more “established or accomplished” you are.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>From the magazine articles out there on Chu Gar (written by Gene Chen and Paul Whitrod), they say Lao Sui learned his Art from a Wong Fook Gao (who was also born in Wai Yeung). However, I believe the source said that all three also learned from a “Chung Yel Jung” - the Poisen Snake, in Hong Kong. Is there dispute in the S. Mantis community over who Lao Sui learned from? It seems that Lum Sang is not connected with Lao Sui’s lineage. Much of the info I have comes from the huge Southern Praying Mantis historical collaboration on the Net (by F. Blanco). I am wondering about this connection. Also, I am wondering about the possibility of Chung Yel Jung being called “the poisen snake” and Lung Ying’s top form (one of) being called Poisen Snake Flicks / Hides Tongue.[/quote]
Huang Nian Jiao and Wong Fook Gao MIGHT very well be the same name with different pronounciations. This happens all the time. There are over hundred of dialects in China and to mention most of the time teaching are orally done. We might tend to think that old masters don’t “cross train” but if we look closely at history…
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Therefore (to sum), we have 3 kung-fu brothers, with a possible 4 shared teachers. The fact that Lung Ying does not mention Wong or Chung, to me suggests either a desire to seperate, or a completely seperate lineage.[/quote]
As far as my research goes, it were GM LYK’s father and uncle who went to learn from Hoi Fung Si. GM CLC learned from GM LYK’s uncle Lum Hop or sometime know as Lum “Ah” Hop. The “Ah” is a slang accent added in for names that are composed of 2 characters. It “sounds” better and more powerful for Cantonese. Technically, they were Sihingdei. I speculate that Sam Bo Tyui concept was from Wong. If we compare Lung Ying’s Sup Luk Dong (16 Moves) and Bak Mei’s Jik Bo (striaght Steps), we can see that there would some kind of a jong (on guard position) and then the left Bil Ji - right punch combo. Further more they are both taught as the novice first form. To me, it’s kind of like the Boxing’s 1-2 combo but in the Hakka arts it has more flare with same if not more efficiency. Just a thought.
Mantis108
Contraria Sunt Complementa
CLC
Mantis,
could you clear up some thing?
Was ClC a master of LungYing before he studied Pak Mei? If so what did he change in his LungYing to become PakMei? I don’t want to have a flame war. I am seriously interested.
Bak Mei (White Eyebrow)
One of the styles placing it’s origins from the shaolin temple by the Monk Bak Mei. This art is often considered a traitors art because of the supposed actions of the monk that is said to cause the destruction of the shaolin temple. Bak Mei was said to have killed monk Jee Shim in some stories and was him self killed by one of the remain shaolin monks. Some do not believe this story and feel the story is altered from the truth. As most martial arts history the legends are often twisted or even entirely made up. What is passed down as history in Bak Mei is that master Cheung Lai Chun brought this art to the public after learning it from monk Chuk Fat Wan who had been a Daoist disciple at Kwang Wai temple at Sze Chuan where Bak Mei him self is said to have taught. He moved to Canton and came across Cheung Lai Chun who was already a master of Lee gar, Dragon(Lung Ying), and Gypsy style. After Being bested by a monk in a restaurant, Cheung followed the monk to his master and was able to persuade monk Chuk Fat Wan to teach him Bak Mei. In any case Bak Mei is a very effective style that uses powerful strikes and a triangular foot work common to many southern arts like Dragon style and Wing Chun. Although Bak Mei seems very external and powerful, it is not a truly hard style. The principle use both yin and yang to combine soft and hard. Power release is executed upon contact only. Much of Bak Mei’s power comes from the back and is often utilized by their famous phoenix eye punch. Strikes are often aimed for softer areas or pressure points instead of smashing style blows that can be found in Hung Gar and other styles This system uses a combination of straight and circular attacks but the circular attacks are not as great as those of choy lee fut but can come from various angles. Training can be very intense utilizing body conditioning and weight training in the version I have seen. Strikes are fast and lethal and launched from a solid even weight distributed stance which is a wider than wing chun and utilizes a 50/50 stance work. I am slightly confused about the forms which are authentic Bak Mei and what sifu Cheung may have taught form his past training if anything. I have heard that they teach over 40 different forms by one source and I have visited another site that only lists about 20. In HB Un’s Book Pak Mei Fung Fu, he says master Cheung learned several forms previously from Lee gar, Dragon Style, and Gypsy Style that have the same name as traditional Bak Mei. I don’t know if they are the same or just have the same names. But some of the basic forms include Sup Jee (Cross pattern), Kou Bo Teaw (nine step push), Fancy Panther, Sup Bat Mor Kiu (18 ghost bridge), 7 point plum flower, and Tiger step movements. Sub Jee is usually considered a basic form that contains many of Bak Mei’s key principles. Weapons include spear, staff, broad swords, bench, chain and various other weapons.
According to the link below :
http://www.hku.hk/cmaclub/resource-center/malibrary/leeka.htm
Lei Ga Kuen is very much a Hakka art! as well
just for sake of completeness.
Good to see that I’m not the only one who stay’s interested in the real history of Pak Mei. Here are some of the questions I have on this:
1 Did CLC create Pak Mei himself after learning art of Mor Kiu from Jook Fai Wan? Or did he learn the Pak Mei style from him?
2 Who was Chung Yel Jung and what was his role?
3 If, like Wilson quoted Dai, Yuk Sim Si and Jook Fai Wan are Si Hing Dai and they both teached the art of Mor Kui, it would mean that both have the same original forms. Are these original forms still to be found somewhere?
Regards, Lau
Great topic guys. Keep up the good work!!!
If Chuk Fat Wan was a doist disciple why is he shown in pictures with a buddist robe?
Thanks in advance.
buby
Food for thought!!!
I found this looking through one of Eddie Chong’s student’s websites. I’ll be pasting bits and pieces of it along with the web address if anyone is interested in reading their whole site.
What I’m about to attach is what I guess would be considered part/whole of Eddie Chong’s lineage. I don’t think they claim CLC’s lineage, it’s difficult for me to tell cause I stink when it comes to matching chinese names.
Anyway guys I hope you enjoy the reading!!!
"The system was passed on to Monk Kwong-Wei, Jui-Yuen, and Monk Fah-Yuen. Then later to the Great Master Cheung Lai-Chun and Liu Chou-Leung, etc., until now.
This style of White Eyebrow taught decends from the Buddhist Sect.
Sifu Dr. Ko and his son, Sifu Michael Coconis, are both students of Yin-Cheung “Eddie” Chong. Sigung Chong’s sifu is Lee, Yong Kien, and is located in Foshan City (formally Fatshan), Guangdong Province, Peoples Republic of (Mainland) China. Sigung Lee’s sifu is the legendary Lau,
Siu Leung of Canton. Mr. Lee is a closed-door student of Mr. Lau and Mr. Chong is a closed-door student of Mr. Lee. The traces of Mr. Lau go back to Fung Fou Dao Yan(Wind Fire Daoist), whose birthname is not known at this time."
This style of White Eyebrow taught decends from the
Buddhist Sect.
Sifu Dr. Ko and his son, Sifu Michael Coconis, are both
students of Yin-Cheung "Eddie" Chong. Sigung Chong's sifu
is Lee, Yong Kien, and is located in Foshan City (formally Fatshan), Guangdong
Province, Peoples Republic of (Mainland) China. Sigung Lee’s sifu is the legendary Lau,
Siu Leung of Canton. Mr. Lee is a closed-door student of Mr. Lau and Mr. Chong is a
closed-door student of Mr. Lee. The traces of Mr. Lau go back to Fung Fou Dao Yan
(Wind Fire Daoist), whose birthname is not known at this time."
http://www.komudokwan.com/bakmei.html
Is this a different lineage?
Can some of the names of the past masters be cross referenced to the masters that CLC learned from?
Thanks in advance,
Bub
Buby
see my e-mail
A book about Cheung besides Pak Mei…
Southern Shao-lin: Phoenix-Eye Fist by Dreager and Cheung, years ago.
Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.
3 tigers of the eastern river valley
Just came across a blurb regarding Lam Yiu Gwai, Cheung Lau Chuen and Li Sui. I found it in
Secrets of Kung Fu vol3no.4 from 1979.
The Three Tigers of the Eastern River Valley
by Michael Luk
These are 3 famous exponents of the Eastern River Vally (also known as the Pearl River Delta) of Kwangtung Province. They are Grand Master Lin Yao Kui of the Dragon Form Mo Chiao Style, Grandmaster Chang Li Chuan of the White Brow Style and Grandmaster Liu Cheng Chu of the Southern Praying Mantis Style. Lin Yao Kue, son of Lin Ching Yuan, learned the kung fu of the Mo Chiao Style from Monk Ta Yu. Chang Li Chuan followed Lin Hsia and was later taught the pugilistic skill of the White Brow Style by Monk Chu Fa Yun. Liu Chen Chu (Alias Liu Shui) is the first person to teach the Southern Praying Mantis Style in Hong Kong. His teacher was Wang Fu Kao.
thats all of it. Again Mandarin Names I think. 
eric Hargrove
ngokfei@juno.com
Howdy
Hi Mr. Hargorve,
Thanks for posting that bit. Does the article say anything else?
Unfortunate transliteration attempt - but better than not trying at all, eh?
Are these magazines still available for purchase?
Cheers - kevin
Hakka Tradition
In our Hakka tradition there are 3 most important thing. “Ming Gung”, “Shen Gong” and " Kay Lun". Ming Gong is Gong Fu, Shen Gong is spiritual art and Kay Lun is unicorn dance.
As far as the gong fu is spreading extremely fast to the west, the others seems to have been very slow or not even known. Which is a shame. Culture and traditional respect has a very important role in our tradition which we hope that will ring a bell to the others.
Apart from the well known BaK Mei, Lung Ying Mor Kiu and Tong Long. There are actually a lot other more gong fu styles in Hakka tradition. e.g. Dill Gar Gao, Lau Gar Gao and Lee Gar etc. Which have heavily influence the modern three main streams in some ways. But unfortuenately, due to secretacy in passing on, which was a unwritten rule, all these styles are lesser known or even die out..
regards
Wilson
Hi Wilson,
I hear you. The spirit of sharing is not easy to cultivate. Personally, I find the Lung Ying and Bak Mei even Chow Gar Tong Long are more open to the idea of sharing information. I know GM Lam and GM Cheung shared students. It’s the quest for knowledge that they were interested in. I think that their example inspired their lineages of the sharing spirit. But to be able to get into the spirit, one must empty his or her cup first. In these two styles, there are poems and couplets that remind the students to be humble and learn from others. I feel this is a good tradition to pass on the next generations.
Good thoughts, Wilson. The 3 important things are just excellent.
Mantis108
Contraria Sunt Complementa
[This message has been edited by mantis108 (edited 05-28-2000).]