The expensive Lesson in the history of red boat uprising which Wck involve in

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I had spent quite some time to help a 7th degree Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book. Even a Okinawan Karate teacher believes that his system came from white crane.

Oh. Who was the Nanadan and what is the style? What was the book?

Also what knowledge does this Nanadan Karateka have of White Crane?

If you are truly interested, I have some books / pages that could be translated into English. Would be happy for you to take a look at a few pages (not the whole thing … that would take forever!)

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[QUOTE=Minghequan;1264992]Oh. Who was the Nanadan and what is the style? What was the book?

Also what knowledge does this Nanadan Karateka have of White Crane?

If you are truly interested, I have some books / pages that could be translated into English. Would be happy for you to take a look at a few pages (not the whole thing … that would take forever!)[/QUOTE]

His first name is Ronny who lives in Bastrop, Texas. I believe he trains Uechi-ryu karate. Don’t remember the title of that book. That was almost 40 years ago.

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Ah I know the guy, Ronald Lindsay of Matsumura Shorinryu & “Hakutsuru” … hardly someone I’d be putting too much stock into as representative of the Crane / Karate connection!

So are you interested in doing some small translations???

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[QUOTE=Minghequan;1264957]Sorry but the White Crane & Karate Myth is just that, a myth made popular by a Chinese regime wanting more recognition for their country.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Ron it’s not quite so black & white. Uechi Ryu is based on the system handed down by Zhou Zihe. It was taught at Xiaoliansi and is based upon Hu Zun Quan and Bai He Quan. It’s quite possible that Goju Ryu is partially based on Wu Zu Quan, of which Bai He Quan is a large part. Many older Kata of Okinawa Te are based upon Bai He Quan. Naihanchi, Neipai, Chinto, Neiseishi, Sanchin, Seisan etc. all have direct links to Bai He Quan. Now this isn’t to say that all Karate is based on or stems from Bai He Quan, but it was definately an influence to a degree. Okinawa’s cultural influence obviously altered the way it was performed, Japanese influences changed it even further. But to say there is no link is false. Is it misrepresented? Absolutely, the mechanics of Okinawa Te and Bai He Quan are quite different but in some aspects many movements are related, not only in theory but in design. It must also be brought up that most of the “softer” versions of White Crane from China are relatively newer, many less than 125 years old. Evolution and adaptation of martial arts styles are a common thing when popular trends are dictated to teachers by a fickle mob of mainstream consumers whose whims are based upon social norms and popularity.

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[QUOTE=Minghequan;1264995]Ah I know the guy, Ronald Lindsay of Matsumura Shorinryu & “Hakutsuru” … hardly someone I’d be putting too much stock into as representative of the Crane / Karate connection!

So are you interested in doing some small translations???[/QUOTE]

I believe Lindsay is his last name. I totally forget about it. It’s a small world. I’m not interesting in translating someone’s book any more. At this point of my life, “style” has no meaning to me. I’m not like Hendrik. I’m not interest in history.

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Sorry Ron it’s not quite so black & white. Uechi Ryu is based on the system handed down by Zhou Zihe. It was taught at Xiaoliansi and is based upon Hu Zun Quan and Bai He Quan. It’s quite possible that Goju Ryu is partially based on Wu Zu Quan, of which Bai He Quan is a large part. Many older Kata of Okinawa Te are based upon Bai He Quan. Naihanchi, Neipai, Chinto, Neiseishi, Sanchin, Seisan etc. all have direct links to Bai He Quan. Now this isn’t to say that all Karate is based on or stems from Bai He Quan, but it was definately an influence to a degree. Okinawa’s cultural influence obviously altered the way it was performed, Japanese influences changed it even further. But to say there is no link is false. Is it misrepresented? Absolutely, the mechanics of Okinawa Te and Bai He Quan are quite different but in some aspects many movements are related, not only in theory but in design. It must also be brought up that most of the “softer” versions of White Crane from China are relatively newer, many less than 125 years old. Evolution and adaptation of martial arts styles are a common thing when popular trends are dictated to teachers by a fickle mob of mainstream consumers whose whims are based upon social norms and popularity.

David,

To paraphrase, I see nothing similar in the mechanics of Karate to Fuzhou White Crane. Look to the writings of Lee Kong (The world’s most eminent Researcher/Historian on White Crane) in his massive treatise on the subject and you won’t see any connection or even mention of “Karate” as some sort of offshoot of White Crane. Original Crane had only 15 techniques and no forms until the influence of Zheng Si Chi … that much is recorded … so where is the Crane influence upon Karate?

What you are mainly talking about is verbal history … Uechi-Ryu may well be based in part on some Crane (Not very much!) but remains largely a Tiger style offshoot … that no one can deny.

Goju-Ryu and Wuzhquan .. yes! Crane? … No. Wuzuquan is a five animals system and Crane doesn’t have the over-riding influence there. One of my guides is a Wuzuquan Stylist and quite famous at that.

Kata: Naihanchi, Neipai, Chinto, Neiseishi, Sanchin, Seisan with the exception of maybe Nepai and Sanchin those forms and the moves within could readily be connected to several other forms of Chinese Martial Arts … simply a matter of interpretation ( which is largely the oral myth stuff ) … even Sanchin is seen in a greatr many other Chinese arts and not just Crane! So I think that’s stretching things a fair bit.

To quote yourself in another thread:

Just because the apple is a different color and has a slightly different taste doesn’t make it a banana, it’s still an apple. Now I can appreciate the finer nuances and subtle alterations as well as the next guy, but thats all it is. I’m not seeing anything of an eye opening revelation that is going to propel my understanding and execution of the art beyond what I all ready know and comprehend. This “engine” you speak of, well any engine can be overhauled, but we also have to look at the chassis, transmission, body, suspension, wheels, brakes etc. You can’t turn a Ford Fiesta into a Dodge Ram and expect it to perform the same, their uses are different and their parts aren’t interchangable. Just as one can’t use this “ancient” DNA theory to elevate their current lineage specific WC without transforming it into YKWC/SCWC.

we also have to look at the chassis, transmission, body, suspension, wheels, brakes etc

Exactly so what is supposed to be an influence of some major proportion on Karate as has been expressed here and elsewhere is only likely to be a few “nuts and bolts” if that, certainly not the whole vehicle!

You can’t turn a Ford Fiesta into a Dodge Ram and expect it to perform the same, their uses are different and their parts You can’t turn a Ford Fiesta into a Dodge Ram and expect it to perform the same, their uses are different and their parts aren’t interchangable

So true. The influence cited by many as being a major thing really comes down to more “wishful thinking” than actual White Crane. Remember Karate then and now is a vastly different beast to each other. “Their uses are different and their parts aren’t interchangeable”

popular trends are dictated to teachers by a fickle mob of mainstream consumers whose whims are based upon social norms and popularity

That’s it in a nutshell. All the popular beliefs, the myths, the stories passed down cannot accurately represent nor change the overwhelming evidence that White Crane and Karate are two entirely different vehicles! Sure they may be “vehicles” but they are not the same. Just look to the He Quan, Quan Jue to see this.

In the end however and once all the cyber-dust has settled, you will hold your beliefs based largely on your background in Crane (Tibetan in origin) and I will do the same based upon my own (Fuzhou, Fujian & YongChun).

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David,

To paraphrase, I see nothing similar in the mechanics of Karate to Fuzhou White Crane.

Depends on the region & style of Crane “Soft” and “Hard” methods exsist.

Look to the writings of Lee Kong (The world’s most eminent Researcher/Historian on White Crane) in his massive treatise on the subject and you won’t see any connection or even mention of “Karate” as some sort of offshoot of White Crane. Original Crane had only 15 techniques and no forms until the influence of Zheng Si Chi … that much is recorded … so where is the Crane influence upon Karate?

Within the techniques. They can be utilized in a great manner of ways, different energies, force projection etc. Besides isn’t a good portion of this in the Bubishi, you know that Okinawan book. :slight_smile:

What you are mainly talking about is verbal history … Uechi-Ryu may well be based in part on some Crane (Not very much!) but remains largely a Tiger style offshoot … that no one can deny.

Goju-Ryu and Wuzhquan .. yes! Crane? … No. Wuzuquan is a five animals system and Crane doesn’t have the over-riding influence there. One of my guides is a Wuzuquan Stylist and quite famous at that.

Your guide needs to brush up on his history. Wuzuquan is very much Crane influenced, there is a Yang He branch based primarily on Crane, a Yongchun branch based primarily on crane etc…Wuzu is not 5 animal it is five (six) method art depending on the lineage: Luohan, Damo, Bai He, Da Sheng, Taizu & Mysterious Lady

Kata: Naihanchi, Neipai, Chinto, Neiseishi, Sanchin, Seisan with the exception of maybe Nepai and Sanchin those forms and the moves within could readily be connected to several other forms of Chinese Martial Arts … simply a matter of interpretation ( which is largely the oral myth stuff ) … even Sanchin is seen in a greatr many other Chinese arts and not just Crane! So I think that’s stretching things a fair bit.

I said that they have a base in White Crane I didn’t say that they were outright White Crane, things evolve as I stated below. I could easily employ Bai He mechanics and principles with any of these Kata and alter them completely to look like a Fuzhou or Fujian style of Crane. Does it make them so? No, but lends credence to the fact that they share a common ancestry.

Exactly so what is supposed to be an influence of some major proportion on Karate as has been expressed here and elsewhere is only likely to be a few “nuts and bolts” if that, certainly not the whole vehicle!

That’s pretty much what I was getting at only alluding to the fact that White Crane, like it or not, did play a role in the development of some aspects of Karate, if only in the mimicry of movement. I agree that the Fajin is not anywhere near the same.

In the end however and once all the cyber-dust has settled, you will hold your beliefs based largely on your background in Crane (Tibetan in origin) and I will do the same based upon my own (Fuzhou, Fujian & YongChun).

My background extents well beyond Several Tibetan Crane lineages, it also reaches into Hong Chuan Yongchun Quan, Yongchun Bai He Quan, Fuzhou He Quan and Okinawan Te as well as Fojia Quan

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Like I said … agree to disagree … ain’t no big deal! :wink:

You stated Hong Chuan Yongchun Quan, Yongchun Bai He Quan, Fuzhou He Quan … What lineage of YongChun and Fuzhou He Quan as these are just base terms without the lineage?

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[QUOTE=Minghequan;1265006]Like I said … agree to disagree … ain’t no big deal! :wink:

You stated Hong Chuan Yongchun Quan, Yongchun Bai He Quan, Fuzhou He Quan … What lineage of YongChun and Fuzhou He Quan as these are just base terms without the lineage?[/QUOTE]

I only claim lineage in Bei Xizang Lama Bai He Pai Quanfa, Hong Chuan Xiban Yongchun Quanfa, and Huangjia Wu Taijia Pai Quanfa (Fojia Quanfa). The other stuff I’ve just dabbled in to get a different perspective on how “Crane” is practiced across the board, nothing too indepth. But from what I’ve seen and experienced I can’t say that it’s much different. Crane is Crane no matter what spin someone puts on it or how it’s emphasized. There is only 4 basic methods, Flying, Feeding, Calling and Nesting. Any legit crane style will practice them all and emphasize what they feel important to their particular practice, no matter what it’s blended with.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1264885]People sometimes forget that regardless of how a MA started, what it is NOW is what is important.[/QUOTE]

True

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[QUOTE=Minghequan;1264991]
As for the Okinawan arts I have studied these in-depth including on Okinawa and yes some of the arts have a tenuous connection to China (Uechiryu / Tiger Boxing, Gojuryu / Five Ancestors Fist etc) but not White Crane![/QUOTE]

Nobody said Karate is White Crane…your changing your argument. Certain schools of Karate are descended from White Crane and other Fujian Gong Fu, with Okinawan culture and influences.

Your earlier insinuation, you have since backed away from, that Karate is not connected to Chinese MA is absurd. It was called “China Hand” for crying out loud! It is well documented that Okinawan Te and later Karate Masters traveled to China to train. You don’t deny the existence of Sanchin, so where did that come from…if the China/Okinawa connection is a Chinese nationalists’ fabrication?

Or the naming and histories associated with other classical Karate Kata for that matter…If your unaware of a strong Chinese connection, I doubt very much your knowledge of OMA.

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Wow! Highly insulting! Stating I know little about traditional Chinese Martial Arts and Okinawan Martial Arts!

This response is an insult to me in the terms of my own martial art. Your tone implies that I know very little of anything. I’m no world-beater that’s for sure, just a seeker! But give me a little credit. I see nothing unique or special with in your points raised thus far.

You obviously have a lot invested in this argument so how about we start by you stating just how much Fuzhou White Crane you have personally experienced and what Okinawan Martial Arts you have studied?

Then I’d know or at the least have an idea of where your coming from in your rather strongly worded, bordering on insults comments!

Me? I know nothing. I have only be doing the Martial Arts for the past 43 years so I am only just “scratching the surface”. A period of those years was in Nihon Karate (Shotokan & Goju Ryu) then moving on to Okinawan Martial Arts from 1988 (Matsumura Seito Shorin-Ryu, Kochinda Saburo Ryukyu Kobudo, Koshinkan Kojo Ryu and Hakutsuru). From there (1996) - to present day) my final phase and current place of learning in the Zhenlan Minghequan Tradition. I have also studied the Taiji of Erle Montaigue and am a recognised instructor in that system.

As you can plainly see, my experiences are very little and I’m a nobody in the greater scheme of things. I am a old, slightly overweight grey haired guy of very little skill and even less knowledge.

I’d be happy to bow to your knowledge on this subject. Just show me your experiences of this area of discussion and I’ll gladly give way to your knowledge!

Looking forward to hearing from you.

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One thing I’d like to raise if I may here as a White Crane stylists or even an other stylist looking in, all this back and forth stuff really doesn’t make me want to know more about Wing Chun. In fact quite the opposite.

To an outsider, martial artist or not, this one up-manship, this “only I have or know the real Wing Chun” does a great dis-service to the art in all of its forms and lineages … just something to consider.

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[QUOTE=Minghequan;1265063]One thing I’d like to raise if I may here as a White Crane stylists or even an other stylist looking in, all this back and forth stuff really doesn’t make me want to know more about Wing Chun. In fact quite the opposite.

To an outsider, martial artist or not, this one up-manship, this “only I have or know the real Wing Chun” does a great dis-service to the art in all of its forms and lineages … just something to consider.[/QUOTE]

Good point Ron. I agree with you.

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[QUOTE=Minghequan;1265062]Wow! Highly insulting! Stating I know little about traditional Chinese Martial Arts and Okinawan Martial Arts!

This response is an insult to me in the terms of my own martial art. Your tone implies that I know very little of anything.
[/QUOTE]

Apologies, but I was simply matching the tone given.

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Kellen, I’m not interested in some form of one up-manship or Internet P#ssing Contest.

I’m not into putting people down for the sake of my own ego or to score a few points with other posters.

So lets leave it at that shall we?

However, you did not answer my question regarding just how much Fuzhou White Crane you have personally experienced and what Okinawan Martial Arts you have studied?

Then I’d know or at the least have an idea of where your coming from.

I’ll repeat my background overview not that it’s anything all that special:

Me? I know nothing. I have only be doing the Martial Arts for the past 43 years so I am only just “scratching the surface”. A period of those years was in Nihon Karate (Shotokan & Goju Ryu) then moving on to Okinawan Martial Arts from 1988 (Matsumura Seito Shorin-Ryu, Kochinda Saburo Ryukyu Kobudo, Koshinkan Kojo Ryu and Hakutsuru). From there (1996) - to present day) my final phase and current place of learning in the Zhenlan Minghequan Tradition. I have also studied the Taiji of Erle Montaigue and am a recognised instructor in that system.

As you can plainly see, my experiences are very little and I’m a nobody in the greater scheme of things. I am a old, slightly overweight grey haired guy of very little skill and even less knowledge.

I’d be happy to bow to your knowledge on this subject. Just show me your experiences of this area of discussion and I’ll gladly give way to your knowledge!

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:slight_smile: Minghequan, check your PM box and let me know if message was received, thanks.

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Thanks Keith. Really all this discussion is doing nothing good for the image of Wing Chun which if my “Google Fu” is any good … well it’s not that crash hot anyway (Due to the in-fighting, “My Wing Chun am better than yours”, “only I have the one true way”, stuff I am seeing and reading).

So threads like this really do this great art a terrible dis-service and lower not only the art but those practitioners who endlessly debate, put-down and claim that theirs is the one true Wing Chun.

All are forgetting the one thing of real importance! Do you enjoy your art & training?

If so, then all this “kerfuffle” is of no importance or relevance to you!

Just get on with it! Less talk, less endless debate about who is right or wrong, 1850’s Wing Chun versus present day! Seriously, when all this Cyber Bulldust is settled what has it achieved except for people who should be training and enjoying their art spending countless hours punching away at a keyboard!

I don’t care if you agree with my art. I don’t care if you say your art is better than mine. I don’t call if you say I am a fraud, only a historian, not a fighter or too much of a fighter! Why because at the end of the day, I will still be training away, working on myself for myself! At the end of the day I can spend time with my wife and children and this whole debate has no hold of me!

Maybe others also need to simply let go and simply “Be!”

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Palmstriker … Done & replied!

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:smiley: Thanks, some stuff I thought you might be interested in.