Originally posted by Edmund
In that case, you’ve done a fair bit of cheating yourself by having the seminar.
Ok, I’m guilty spying on them.
Ray
Originally posted by Knifefighter
What are the specific reasons you find WC to be more effective for the average person?
- Easy to learn
- Simplicity in Technique and Concept
- Economy of Motion, efficiency in everything one learns
- Practical fighting Philosophy based on reality based situations
- Effective fighting Techniques that can be used by the able bodied and enabled bodied. Wing Chun transcends the limitations of each individual
- Wing Chun can work for everyone equally
- Relies more on skill attributes(timing, perception/sensitivity abilities, distance control) rather than physical attributes like speed, strength or stamina (although these things are needed to perform the movements WC does not rely on them to the same high degree as MT, everyone needs these things, but some arts rely on them more)
Now please everyone, feel free to pick apart each and every one of these listed reasons, as I know you will do diligently from previous posts of Wing Chun advantages on a Wing Chun forum, lol.
James
All of those things are present in muay thai. In addition, if you think they don’t use timing, distance or sensitivity, you know nothing about thai boxing…
for number 4, what are these reality based situations? whose experiences are they based upon?
Originally posted by YongChun
[B]Ok, I’m guilty spying on them.
Ray [/B]
Not really spying if you just ask them to give you a seminar!
It’s funny what people have picked up and commented on from your notes.
Most of the notes were about technique and fighting theory and had nothing to do with how tough or conditioned they are. Yet a lot of people are discussing conditioning as if that was the main part of Muay Thai.
Conditioning is only one aspect, and it’s OTHER things like when to use a particular technique, how to defend and hold a guarding position, the mechanics of each strike, how they practice the SKILLS etc. that also make Muay Thai effective. This is the art aspect that can be taught to anybody, not just fit young people.
“Pride and K1” (brought up by sihing) are not particularly fantastic examples of Muay Thai. Because of the rules and the average size and background of the fighters, it’s not quite the same style as what you see in Thailand.
Originally posted by SevenStar
All of those things are present in muay thai. In addition, if you think they don’t use timing, distance or sensitivity, you know nothing about thai boxing…
Re points 5 - 7. Thai Boxing would not work equally well for me. I don’t have the orthopedic structure to tolerate that kind of training.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
We generally dont break through the same old same old posts-just restate them. So this too is same old WC POV. I dont feel the slightest need to justify wing chun to non wing chunners on a wing on what is labelled as a wing chun list. Comments in brackets follow:
Originally posted by SevenStar
All of those things are present in muay thai. In addition, if you think they don’t use timing, distance or sensitivity, you know nothing about thai boxing…
((Of course MT folks use distancing, timing and sensitivity- most skilled activity uses those qualities. But those qualities are function and art specific in the details. Sensitivity to what? What kinds of timing? Distance relative to what? Good wing chun develops those things for wing chun strategy and tactics.))
Re points 5 - 7. Thai Boxing would not work equally well for me. I don’t have the orthopedic structure to tolerate that kind of training.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
((One of the nice things about wing chun is it’s versatility and adaptability…depending on body type, size, age, physical strengths and weaknesses. Paul Lam ( a student of Leung Shun)
was a pretty good fighter. Apart from Lee Sing he was one of the first to introduce wing chun in the UK. He had polio asa kid and had below average legs- but he got his rooting and mobility down enough and developed great and powerful wing chun hand usage in dealing with wing chun and non wing chun folks he encountered)).))
Originally posted by kj
[B]Re points 5 - 7. Thai Boxing would not work equally well for me. I don’t have the orthopedic structure to tolerate that kind of training.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo [/B]
there is a guy in our class who has plantar’s fasciitis (sp?) and he is able to train occasionally. He does bjj as well. bjj is MUCH easier on his feet, but does it anyway.
I have a naturally twisted spine - my right side is further forward than my left. You can’t look at me and tell, but it shows on x ray.
we’ve got several women in the class, one of which has back probs, if I’m not mistaken.
On an interesting and related note, a CMA acquaintance of mine (yes, he trains WC) told me that he hasn’t been able to train as much recently because he was getting old…his previous injuries from training are getting to him. The only MA he’s done are longfist and WC, not counting the boxing he did when he ws 14.
Out of curiousity though, what condition do you have?
Ray,
Nice write up.
From what you have seen what makes the MT strikes so much stronger than the WC ones (or any other styles for that matter)? Also, given that they hit harder do they lose anything in speed or control?
Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]there is a guy in our class who has plantar’s fasciitis (sp?) and he is able to train occasionally. He does bjj as well. bjj is MUCH easier on his feet, but does it anyway.
I have a naturally twisted spine - my right side is further forward than my left. You can’t look at me and tell, but it shows on x ray.
we’ve got several women in the class, one of which has back probs, if I’m not mistaken.
On an interesting and related note, a CMA acquaintance of mine (yes, he trains WC) told me that he hasn’t been able to train as much recently because he was getting old…his previous injuries from training are getting to him. The only MA he’s done are longfist and WC, not counting the boxing he did when he ws 14.
Out of curiousity though, what condition do you have? [/B]
Thanks for the anecdotes, Sevenstar. Those folks you described have my respect and kudos for working through and around their constraints, as do those who have the willingness and patience to work with them. I hope they can continue to make the right balances in order to both benefit from and enjoy their work for years to come.
Not to belabor my personal challenges, and distinctly not seeking therapy here; rather to offer a good faith answer to your good faith question. Perhaps this may also help to illustrate that there are sometimes legitimate physical constraints which, combined with other reasons, support the case for choice and variety in training methods.
In my particular case, I have a number of genetic and developmental “anomalies”(e.g., ligament laxity, os acromiale, and Spondylolisthesis), some of which have contributed to other problems and symptoms including but not exclusive to: chronic bursitis of the shoulders, excessive movement in the iliosacral joint , sciatica, tendonitis, and yes, plantar faciitis. I also have genetic propensity for osteoarthritis in various joints; the worst of which is my knees which are presently on the verge of requiring replacement in keeping with both my maternal and paternal ascendants. I have encountered many of these symptoms and problems throughout my adult life, they just tend to worsen over time; some of them have been problematic since early childhood, most notably the knee problems. I was fortunate to have had a surgical procedure successfully performed to correct a very painful case of hallux rigidus, which dramatically improved my posture, gait and stance. I have also had multiple arthroscopies of the knees including partial meniscectomies and general “cleaning” which, along with a variety of other therapies have helped keep me reasonably functional to this point.
Oh yeah, I have carpal tunnel syndrome and TMJ too, LOL.
Despite all of this, I am reasonably functional. I just “break” rather easily if not judicious in my work. 
But we all have some achilles heel. Lest my potential enemies presume too much, none of this means I won’t kick someone good if I sincerely need to! 
Given that I must use care in “spending” what little remains of my knees (and other parts), for the time being at least, it just means I will be rather selective about whom to kick, and when. 
I gave serious consideration to these and numerous other factors when I evaluated my martial arts options some years ago. It was no accident that I elected to give Wing Chun a try.
This may also help to explain in part why I often think to question many dogmatic assertions, assumptions and “shoulds.”
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Originally posted by kj
In my particular case, I have a number of genetic and developmental “anomalies”(e.g., ligament laxity…
You would smoke in BJJ. Hyperflexible people give us normal range of motion people fits- it’s hard to submit them, you can’t pass their guards, and they are always getting your back and choking you out.
Originally posted by Tydive
From what you have seen what makes the MT strikes so much stronger than the WC ones (or any other styles for that matter)? Also, given that they hit harder do they lose anything in speed or control?
wc uses a whip like energy for power generation, correct? muay thai is more like a baseball bat - it just plows through the target. Also, MT does alot of training geared toward building power - thai pad training and heavy bag training specifically. I don’t see any major difference in speed, with the exception of chain punches, but IME, there’s a tradeoff of power there. As far as control, only in the case of the roundhouse - if it misses, some people are taken completely around by the momentum. Soem are good enough to be able to stop in mid kick, and others will plant the foot before spinning completely around and follow with a side or back kick.
7* asks:
wc uses a whip like energy for power generation, correct?
That is one kind of energy- there are others. No comment on MT.
Well I’ll comment on Muay Thai power generation…
“Also, MT does alot of training geared toward building power - thai pad training and heavy bag training specifically.” (Sevenstar)
Wing Chun folks should be doing similar things - and very frequently.
Pads/mitts/shields/heavy bags, etc.
And here’s another one…I’ve taken some carpet underpadding material (it’s about an inch thick) and wrapped it completely around my Wooden Dummy (with the exception of the arms and leg, of course)…and punch/palm strike/elbow/kick…the WD full power all the time.
Definitely helps turn the whip-like action into very powerful strikes.
7*
muay thai is more like a baseball bat - it just plows through the target
Ummm… how? My understanding of a strike is that I end it at a specific point. Usually 2-4" inside the person. If you are going through the person then how do you avoid pushing the punch? How do you avoid ending up off balance at the end of a strike (ala baseball swing)?
I think it’s relative. I know some guys in MT that kick so hard that if there was nothing there to make contact with the kick would swing all the way around…
Then again there’s weaklings like me that still “whip it”. I don’t like the kicks that go all the way around because then Im exposing my backside. And I don’t like exposing my backside…unless it’s like a practical joke or something. Wait…that’s a different backside. Nevermind.
when punching, you target behind the person, not just into them. focusing behind can equate to pushing - that’s something your coach should pick up on and correct - it’s a technique flaw on the practitioner’s part, as it being off balanced when you throw a strike. If your stance and balance are correct, you will not fall of balance when trying to punch through something. same with the kicks. It’s not uncommon for the arc of a missed roundhouse to continue around. Some people are able to stop the strike mid kick if they miss. I’ve seen occasions where people spin all the way around and I’ve seen people who will plant that kicking foot before rotating completely and counter with either a side or back kick.
Originally posted by Vankuen
Then again there’s weaklings like me that still “whip it”. I don’t like the kicks that go all the way around because then Im exposing my backside. And I don’t like exposing my backside…unless it’s like a practical joke or something. Wait…that’s a different backside. Nevermind.
whoa…tmi…
when punching, you target behind the person
Ok. That explains why so many fights that I watch look like pushing contests to me. I could see how that would change things quite a bit from how I do it. Not just the strikes but your set up distance and follow up options. I would hate to try to do that unless I was up on the balls of my feet.
boxers fight on the balls of the feet for mobility, not for depth with the strike. Like I said, pushing in the strike is possible, but that is the result of bad technique, generally leaving the arm extended for too long - typically from trying too hard to penetrate too much.
the heavy bag is a beautiful thing.
Originally posted by Tydive
Ok. That explains why so many fights that I watch look like pushing contests to me.
You are watching Muay Thai fights that look like pushing contests?