Th Great Grand Master?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

A friend of mine saw me get into a fight and his remarks were that it was like a hockey fight or a fight you would see in high school, and my response was if he thought it was supposed to look like a kung fu movie or what. I can remember all the Wing Chun I used in the fight. It ended up on the ground with clawing, pounding, and biting and blood everywhere, not much Wing Chun in that part of the fight.

Is the story about one of Emin’s men tugging down Cheung’s trowsers before the fight true? Asking out of curiosity, no disrespect intended.

22

Is the story about one of Emin’s men tugging down Cheung’s trowsers before the fight true? Asking out of curiosity, no disrespect intended.

You’re kidding right? Next, you’ll be asking if they slipped him something in his drink beforehand… :rolleyes:

23

No I wasn’t kidding, it was a story I’ve heard and wondered if its true. Did they slip him a mickey finn too? :^)

24

walks in to forum, sees dead horse on ground, sees other forum members laying into it, decides to pick up nearest club and have a go at it

As has been pointed out:

  • The fight is edited
  • The floor was probably slippy (this IME affects both stand up and ground fighting, making it ‘sloppier’. As a thought experiment think of Lewis trying to box on an ice rink (FWIW - i sometimes ‘roll’ with my training partner on our slippery wooden floor at home - a different experience from a nice tatame with plenty of traction.))
    -Prior to the incident William cheung made a serious of ill advised statements which he probably regrets now.
  • Emin said that his intention was not to hurt William Cheung per se but just to humiliate him (hence maybe the tactics he uses).
  • Although I cant speak for william cheung (having never met him) from my experience with Emin I would say he is very good at wing chun (a lot better than that clip makes out).
25

You crack me up Andrew! :smiley: That statement is pure poetry! :stuck_out_tongue:

Keith

26

Hi to all,
Sami here, just using bro’s username.
Just like to say aswell that i take my hat of to wingchun. Even though in many of my fights you might not see anything resembling it, i say the sensitivity drills, and all the moves helped my hands learn to think for themselves. Any other techniques that were explained to me from other styles i as able to get a better understanding of the angles and momentum.
I was able to enter Fights with grappling involved with no grappling backround. It taught me improv,lol

by the way as for the delta lineage. My sifu had a number of different teachers and made some mods. to it. Not to say classical or any other is more or less, or that anystyle is better than another. I would say that each serves different people in different ways.
Enjoy training,
BGOOD Goes to show you from a pro, more than Wing Chun just needed to fight
(another Wing Chun Guy stepped out of the dark ages)

27

What I would like to ask is how come William Cheung’s stories change as time goes by? Originally the fight on the boat he was against 3 or 4 people, then it changed into 9 and the last time he said it was against 27 (YES! 27) seamen! This was in one of Australian martial arts magazines. Come on, who is really going to take on and defeat 27 men who are hell bent on doing serious injury to you? Any takers?

In the book, “Bruce Lee: Between wing chun and jkd” there are soem stories about William Cheung. In the following book by the author Jesse Glover, he actually states that some of the exploits mentioned were actually concerning Wong Shun Leung and not William Cheung. In fact, in Hong Kong Wong Shun Leung was considered the fighter of the wing chun clan and was respected as such up until his death.

28

Edmond Lee who was teaching in Australia before passing away was actually on the boat and he said that it was 3-5 people. This was published in “Australasian Fighting Arts” as well and William never corrected him. He said that he was stabbed in the incident and he did not even know that he had been stabbed until he layed on his bed and found that a knife was embedded in his back all the way to the hilt!
Look even after the incident with Emin Boztepe, William couldnt get his story straight.
For example, in black belt magazine he said that when grappling with Boztepe on the ground he felt padding underneath his kung fu jacket! Obviously he was interviewed before he realized that there was a video going to be sold around the world of the fight and that Boztep was wearing a thin t-shirt.

In Australian Penthouse magazine (which has some fine material by the way), he said that he had been recently challenged in Germany and when he turned around to fight the person challenging him, he saw that the person was ‘padded from head to toe’!

These two examples are just two examples of lies told about the fight in Germany and cast shadows of doubt over other stories. Some people want to believe

29

Pointless!

This thread is pointless.

Really, what do you hope to acheive by dragging up this old sh1te; is it helping you become better at WT/WC/VT whatever?

As a “family” (albeit somewhat fragmented at times), we really should be looking to the future to grow as a whole and heal rifts, not thrash the same dull issues again and again.

ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz…

30

It’s pointless because this clown who calls himself “Samson” (of all things…LOL) is a total friggin’ troll, hiding in the troll shadows, talkin’ 5hit about William Cheung…who was Yip Man’s best fighter in his day (and that includes Wong Shun Leung).

What else is new?

There are a lot of sicko jealous people out there…

and especially a few I can think of who happen to be living in Detroit; and from what I can gather, are probably seeing a whole TEAM of psychiatrists.

Later for this garbage thread.

31

Hiding no, from Detroit no, Hiding behind a phoney Grandmaster Yes!

32

Interesting…A few months ago I saw a NHB fight video of a BJJ black belt vs. a Hapkido Black Belt, to which the Hapkido guy took apart the BJJ guy in about 1 1/2 minutes into the first round. So, using your reasoning Terence, I can say IMO that BJJ is the laughing stock of the Martial Arts also, although I wouldn’t, because I know different, and am not stupid enough to judge a Martial Art on one encounter between two people, even though both of these people are skilled in that particular Art.

I guess Bruce was full of sh!t when he said what he said about Cheung then, funny isn’t it that even months before his death he was still comparing himself to the man, lol.

As for Boztepe I agree with Nick, he does have great skill and natural physical attributes in his chosen WT style.

Neither men are unbeatable, but both pose great barriers to anyone engaging them in combat.

As for Boztepe’s challenge match, what would you do when in a foreign land for the first time, alone & unaware of the laws and customs, and someone challenges you, with 4-8 guys backing him up? Maybe passive and non resistent, instead of aggressive with a killer attitude? From what I understand of the situation, Cheung agreed to the challenge and was willing to fight him after the seminar. Also, if the beating was so bad, lol, then how was it possible for the seminar to continue on immediately after the incident took place? It was definitely a dark time for WC, from BOTH camps IMO. Cheung was asking for it, with his c0cky nature and published challenges in the magazines, and Boztepe showed all how big his ego was and lack of self control with his actions, and I’m sure both have learned their lessons since then.

James

33

Edmond Lee who was teaching in Australia before passing away was actually on the boat and he said that it was 3-5 people. This was published in “Australasian Fighting Arts” as well and William never corrected him. He said that he was stabbed in the incident and he did not even know that he had been stabbed until he layed on his bed and found that a knife was embedded in his back all the way to the hilt!

Several corrections here.

  1. You put Great Grandmaster in the thread title. The only person egotistical enough in modern times to claim such a title is Leung Ting, presumably because Keith Kernspecht was due for the Grandmaster title, and they couldn’t both be seen to be on the same level, though to this date Keith hasn’t made it to “Master of Almightiness”. Just as well, since they’d probably have to come up with something even more hifalutin for Leung Ting, like “Supreme Master of Hyperdimensional Wizardry” (copyright anerlich 2005).

  2. Several other people, including Greg Tsoi also claimed to be on the boat, and the article I saw from AFA, shown to me by Sifu David Crook of Canberra, was by him, not Edmu(o)nd Lee. I’m surprised the boat didn’t sink in the South China Sea en route, since it was so overloaded with WC practitioners who all claim to have witnessed the fight.

It was basically about a teenager who effectively fought off four tough seamen - according to some made somewhat easier by the narrow gangways on a ship, which made it easier for Cheung to fight them one at a time and impossible for the group to outflank him. Still quite a remarkable achievement, rather better than a flunky for Ting and Kernspecht in his prime, backed up by a crowd of stooges, setting up and setting upon a 46 year old man and still failing to cause him any significant damage.

Emin admitted in a recent article in Australasian Blitz (see, I can quote sources too!) that he ambushed Cheung on Ting and Kernspecht’s orders, and apologised for doing so.

The 27 adversaries, knife in the back, etc. came up in a fictionalised account which was the basis for a screenplay and was published in various MA magazines, including Blitz. A lot of intellectually challenged people, apparently including you, Samson, took this as a supposedly truthful claim despite it being clearly identified as a fictionalised account. Sure, Cheung didn’t do a lot to dissuade the credulous, but IMO that’s their problem. Only a fool would believe that account.

In Australian Penthouse magazine (which has some fine material by the way),

I suggest you stick to drooling over that rather than discoursing with the adults on here in future, especially on subjects which are decades old.

BTW, you better make sure your brother doesn’t find out he’s using your user name or reading his dirty mags, he might take you into the other sort of WC and give you another “swirly”…

A few months ago I saw a NHB fight video of a BJJ black belt vs. a Hapkido Black Belt

OT, but one of my BJJ acquaintances is a Hapkido BB and school owner who was recently promoted to BJJ purple belt. He is an excellent fighter and competitor.

34

In reference to the question about one of Leung Ting’s guys pulling down William Cheung’s pants just before the Cheung/ Boztepe fight, yes that is true. I had heard the story as well and never knew whether to believe it or not, as I had only seen a very edited version of the fight. Last year someone had posted a longer, unedited (or maybe just less edited) version of that fight clip, and someone does indeed come up behind Cheung and pull down his pants. He quickly pulled them back up and the fight began soon after.

Also, yes, in this clip Cheung does hit Boztepe with a front kick before he ends up on the ground (which I had previously heard from others). I don’t know if he would have done better with less slippery shoes or not, but he did obviously slip.

If you search enough on the web, you can probably find the unedited clip. I had no way of saving it and never though to write down the url, so I can’t give a link to it though. Sorry.

35

Well I am gkad you saw the unedited version of the fight, it shows the truth that he was not blindsided as some would say he threw a front kick, so he was ready to fight. My point is why do people follow a man that cannot tell the truth, where’s the humility? nobody says he cannot fight (atleast me) This guy has more stories than WALT DISNEY!

36

Nerlich’s comments were spot on.

I might point out that video clip where we saw the older gung fu practitioner “fight off” four or five men. As you may recall, I made a comment when Ernie posted it about how this would someday become a “legend”. History repeats itself! :wink:

What is IMO beyond dispute is that Cheung “knows WCK”, at least in the sense that he has the information to teach it. He also has some fighting skill, as anyone from his “generation” in HK can attest to. Having said that, we need to appreciate that we don’t get our skill from our instructor, we get it from our training. If you don’t train like a fighter, you won’t be a fighter. What “made” Cheung, Wong, etc. better fighters than the rest of those at the Yip Man school (leaving aside for the moment the question of talent) wasn’t that they were close to Yip Man or had secret info or knew more, it was that they fought, and by fighting, developed into better fighters. They were among a relatively small bunch that actually practiced WCK; the rest were merely theoretical/nonfighters who played WCK. As neither Wong or Chueng (or anyone else for that matter) fought world-class level fighters, it’s silly to talk about them being world-class level. But they were clearly heads and shoulders above the WCK “players”. As the saying goes, “In the world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.”

37

Again Terence, you ruined what could have been a perfectly good post with too much hyperbole and troll-type rhetoric…

What am I getting at?

Yes it’s true that guys like William, Wong, and Bruce were way ahead of the pack at Yip Man’s school (because they actually fought with the wing chun they trained)…

but there were others from that generation (and thereafter) who could definitely fight…Victor Kan, Duncan Leung, Mak Po, Gary Lam, etc.

You’re constantly throwing out the baby in your haste to show everybody how worthless the bathwater is…

Why is that, Terence?

Very counter productive, it seems to me.

Unless maybe these tactics are simply your internet rehearsal to try and sway juries to acquit your clients even though their guilty?

Pour on the rhetoric, exaggeration, and attempt self esteem intimidation as a means to convince people to ignore facts that are staring them in the face - so that they’ll buy your story lock, stock, and barrel?

It’s getting very tired, man…

38

They fought as teenagers yes (Cheung and Bruce), so you have to take that for what it is (kids in the playground stuff), but others on here have related stories regarding both men of their later fights that were more or less proof of their abilities. At 18 Cheung fought off how many guys on his way to Australia from HK? Although they could only attack him in confined quarters, 3 or 4 at a time, he was at a time in his life where his physical conditioning was high and his knowledge of WC was well developed, he still admitted to getting stab in the back. So any one that can defend themselves against multiple opponents with weapons and talk about it later has skill if you ask me. Ask Andrew Nerlich for more stories as I’m sure his Sifu has plenty. Regarding Bruce we all know lots of stories relating to his skills and abilities, so that is a given. Both men had high quality skills, and if they chose to compete they would have done well (didn’t Cheung win the Elimination contests in Hong Kong back in the 50’s) IMO. Just because they didn’t doesn’t mean the skills were not there.

James

39

Victor,

Read my posts more carefully. I said, “They [Cheung and Wong] were among a relatively small bunch that actually practiced WCK; the rest were merely theoretical/nonfighters who played WCK.” While I didn’t name who made up that “small bunch”, I clearly indicated that there were others besides Cheung and Wong that did fight – including my sigung, Hawkins Cheung, who took up karate so that he could spar (he didn’t want to fight in the streets and break the law but wanted to fight to develop his skill).

James,

There is no doubt that Cheung and others had some fighting skills; I said as much. We can speculate until the cows come home about what their level was. Fighting is like any athletic activity. We know what someone’s level is by their accomplishments; in this case, who they beat and how. Cheung never fought any world-class fighters. He fought mainly in the streets, mainly other kids his age. We don’t know much about his exploit on the boats. Someone could, for example, say that the gung fu guy on the clip Ernie posted “fought and defeated 5 attackers” but when you see the clip for yourself, you see that while he had some skill, those other guys were really, really bad, and no real damage was done to anyone. It wasn’t a BFD. So who really knows about Cheung’s boat fight?

Whatever one’s fighting skills, they decrease over time if one isn’t fighting (as part of their training) to maintain them. In fact, the better one’s skill level, the greater the difficulty maintaining them. This is true of any athletic activity. When the fight occured in Cologne, I doubt that Cheung had fought in 20-25 years.

40

FWIW, Boztepe had to grapple with Cheung, although he was much younger and had trained for the challenge a year in advance I do not think his WC skills back then were a match, now maybe different, but it would be interesting to see the two tango in a stand up only match.

James