After seeing that there are many Sifu that contrubute to this forum I was wondering if anybody would like to share their thoughts on the language used to teach Wing Chun.
Is it a ‘secret’ coded tongue? Is knowledge only ever ‘verbally’ passed down? Do you use scrict ‘codes of conduct’ and set, structured curriculums?
Whatever the terminology, method, theory or maxim this thread is created for you to discuss all the countless variations of teaching Wing Chun…
Heres a link to WingChunPedia…
… to inspire the discussion.
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#Maxims
all secret handshakes, codes, and hand signals …the first move of every form contains the secret…the level of the action gives the whole idea …many hide it by pointing the hands down to the ground, many dont know the code, so they give the actions a meaning for ‘application’ rather than a clear line of thought …the rest of the system is abstract, resulting in many attempting to ,again, translate with rational ‘application’ …once one understands the ‘code’ the system is revealed…and re-inforced throughout the forms…the weapons contain the tactics that are applied to all actions, unless these simple ideas are revealed ones maximum potential will never be reached in VT… 
and will result in kamikaze like attacks with nothing but chain punches 
Lone Tiger 108
http://www.fongswingchun.com/home.html
Lone Tiger -the above Augustine Fong site under “resources” has a curriculum and a dictionary of terms.
Many of the terms and concepts and kuen kuit by “osmosis” shows up in different collections.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;807446]After seeing that there are many Sifu that contrubute to this forum I was wondering if anybody would like to share their thoughts on the language used to teach Wing Chun.
Is it a ‘secret’ coded tongue? Is knowledge only ever ‘verbally’ passed down? Do you use scrict ‘codes of conduct’ and set, structured curriculums?
Whatever the terminology, method, theory or maxim this thread is created for you to discuss all the countless variations of teaching Wing Chun…[/QUOTE]
My thoughts only. I think the language is important to reveal some inoformation. Tan for example means something and someone chose that name over other names. But what we don’t see a lot of in wing chun that is found in other arts is hidden names and meanings. Other arts use fanciful names to describe various aspects of their arts. One exception was Pan Nam, he had interesting names for every thing. But wing chun typically doesn’t seem to have this at its core.
I find many hands don’t even seem to have proper names. Perhaps they were lost, perhaps they arn’t important, perhaps they are just variations on other hands. I don’t know. But it seems we have a core set of terminology that we are interested in, then we have other stuff. But there doesn’t seem to be a secret tounge or langauge.
The closest I would say we get is the Kuen Kuits. But I think even those are pretty straight forward. They are not too secret in their meaning if you see them. A few are abstract and difficult to understand, but then again every domain has such complex knowledge, which usually isn’t secret.
Just my thought on the topic
Lonetiger
In the USA, most Kuen Kuit are from the H.K Clan. The 2 men that spread the Kuen Kuit before ANYONE did to non Asians, were Moy Yat and Augustine Fong. Hands down. I havnt seen many lists, that dont include their material. I have done my best to figure out what came from who and give them the credit they deserve. I always respected and appreciated both of the above mentioned WCK masters for there forecoming nature in breaking down racial barriers, with really Open hearts. While others complained about this was differant or that was differant to how i “do it” , Fong Sifu was the first to put the entire system down on vid and book, to my knowledge, and open many up to their first look at Biu Tze.
B
Is it a ‘secret’ coded tongue?
Only for people under the age of twelve, hopefully. Secrets generally do not help the growth of knowledge or skills, and end with inferior results because not enough scrutiny and pressure are brought to bear on the “secret” stuff.
Matt Thornton makes some sound arguments against the use of special terminology and exotic names for techniques, which Terence will probably parrot on this thread in the near future.
Is knowledge only ever ‘verbally’ passed down?
Only by the illiterate. Some say theirs is an oral tradition, but they usually say this in a long book.
Do you use scrict ‘codes of conduct’ and set, structured curriculums?
I’d prefer people thought for themselves and develop morality from within and encourage them to do so. All the MA’s I practice have structured grading curricula, but flexible teaching methods.
This isn’t Kuen Kuit, its Hao Kuit…
[QUOTE=anerlich;807716]I’d prefer people thought for themselves and develop morality from within and encourage them to do so. All the MA’s I practice have structured grading curricula, but flexible teaching methods.[/QUOTE]
Something I can actually agree with you on at last. Although I have learnt set teaching methods, just different interpretations for different personalities and generations.
I would like anyones opinion on this webpage which has an original piece of text presented to myself and my Si Hing when we founded our Academy.
http://www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk/Curriculum/foundation/foundation.html
It’s a bit crowded, and the requirement to bump up your screen resolution is lame web design. you’d be better with some sort of cascading menu system and structure rather than trying to cram everything possible on page one.
I don’t read Chinese, so can’t comment on the text.
This isn’t Kuen Kuit, its Hao Kuit…
And your point is …
Is it a ‘secret’ coded tongue?
Wow, I thought I was the only one with a code on my tongue.. :eek::rolleyes:
I wish I could read it..
[QUOTE=YungChun;807836]Wow, I thought I was the only one with a code on my tongue.. :eek::rolleyes:
I wish I could read it..[/QUOTE]
This could be a major problem in Chinese Medicine, considering we use the tongue and the pulse as the backbone of diagnosis.
Send me a photo!
Hi Kenton..
Yeah the symbol is said to amplify my chi through the tongue meridian and allows me to use WCK’s little known, no touch killing techniques. Sorry, I can’t show it to you unless you prove you have closed door MJ-12 status by going through the 108 secret hand shakes with me, which would be hard to do over the Net..
[QUOTE=YungChun;807845]Hi Kenton..
Yeah the symbol is said to amplify my chi through the tongue meridian and allows me to use WCK’s little known, no touch killing techniques. Sorry, I can’t show it to you unless you prove you have closed door MJ-12 status by going through the 108 secret hand shakes with me, which would be hard to do over the Net.. :D[/QUOTE]
Well at least I’m on the East Coast…
There’s no such meridian ON the tongue, however the Heart is said to Flower into the tongue and if the punch comes from the heart…I can see how the connection could be drawn.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;807446]After seeing that there are many Sifu that contrubute to this forum I was wondering if anybody would like to share their thoughts on the language used to teach Wing Chun.
Is it a ‘secret’ coded tongue? Is knowledge only ever ‘verbally’ passed down? Do you use scrict ‘codes of conduct’ and set, structured curriculums?
Whatever the terminology, method, theory or maxim this thread is created for you to discuss all the countless variations of teaching Wing Chun…[/QUOTE]
I think it is critical to appreciate the distinction between the subject matter, what you are trying to learn to do, and the curriculum, how it is taught. WCK is not the forms, the drills, the kuit, the keywords, etc. WCK is a learned (physical) skill (skill set). Just as is boxing or wrestling. Or just as riding a bicycle or skiing are learned skills. As such, it is not intellectually-based. It is skill-based. And so, there is not a lot of “knowledge” – at least beyond the superficial level – that can be “verbally passed down.” Not that there aren’t things to learn. Only verbal information is severely limited in its usefulness. Learning a (physical) skill involves being taught the skill (learn how to perform it) and then practicing the skill (train by doing the skill) until it becomes second nature (habitual).
When you see things this way, the notion of “secret coded tongues” is laughable.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;807933]
When you see things this way, the notion of “secret coded tongues” is laughable.[/QUOTE]
your wife wasnt laughing when i unleashed my “secret coded tounge” on her ;) j/k
[QUOTE=byond1;807696]Lonetiger
In the USA, most Kuen Kuit are from the H.K Clan. The 2 men that spread the Kuen Kuit before ANYONE did to non Asians, were Moy Yat and Augustine Fong. Hands down. I havnt seen many lists, that dont include their material. I have done my best to figure out what came from who and give them the credit they deserve. I always respected and appreciated both of the above mentioned WCK masters for there forecoming nature in breaking down racial barriers, with really Open hearts. While others complained about this was differant or that was differant to how i “do it” , Fong Sifu was the first to put the entire system down on vid and book, to my knowledge, and open many up to their first look at Biu Tze.
B[/QUOTE]
ahhh, I am not sure I agree with that statement at all. I think what your saying is that most public lists may be from these people. I think Curt James was one of the first to post on the net and his material may have been included by many. However, I think you will find many people in a direct lineage and access to their direct seniors have lists. Maybe I am overstepping what I actuall know. Let me rephrase, there are a atleast a few others that have kuen kuits. My lineage has kuen kuits and they are somewhat different than some of the others out there.
My question would be, what is the significance of these? I get the idea they wern’t formally taught, but were probably sayings that kept getting repeated in class.
Kuen Kuit
James was an ex student of Fong- and James’ list was a reproduction of the Fong collection
which was already published in a book by Fong with Chinese lettering and translation from Chinese..The book sold out right away and is out of print. Dan Lucas’s site later on carried the
James list.
Moy Yat’s collection was smaller. It appeared in a small book and also in his stone carvings.
The kuen kuit are martial songs and the meanings can vary with levels of understanding.
The taichi songs are an older published list and also has a parallel characteristic of the requirement of some tacit knowledge of the relevant art.
Guideposts along the way.
joy chaudhuri
P.S. Re kuen kuit
IMO-The kuit is/are no substitute for direct hands on instruction, good practice and experience.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=forever young;807940]your wife wasnt laughing when i unleashed my “secret coded tounge” on her ;) j/k[/QUOTE]
How old are you? 12? 13?
back to the discussion…VT is a freefighting art , problem being many dont see a simple line of attack, unbroken in its delivery, rather “training stages” and basic’s done so often nobody see’e the ‘goal’ of a continous, unrelenting aggressive attack …or how to maintain it through hand techniques developed in chi-sao…a lot of the stuff being taught is now ‘stylized’ by the ‘teacher’ and sold as his product 'take it or leave it ’ oh and heres the video series for $49.99 or 3 easy payments of…self defense stuff using VT…abstracted so far off the line it no longer has any fighting value…just lost in rolling hands, stick 2,3,4 and trap and hit ..lovely again …
… and dont forget the maxims …you understand what they mean to freefighting dont you ? dont you ?