[QUOTE=Mike Patterson;1216832]Too often, people become “hung” on the notion of the action and forget to apply the concept.[/QUOTE]
Agree!
The XingYi Pi Chuan is similiar to the LHPM “catch grasshopper”. After the small circle (grab), there is a big circle (strike). The big circle then turn into a small circle (if you miss the strike, it turns into a grab). The previous small circle then turn into a big circle (the previous grab turns into another strike). I love this “concept” and had spent many training time in it. Since the “grab” has different meaning in SC, I take a different path after my “grab”.
…I’ve never used that mantis claw backhanded strike. You know, the one where you hit with the back of your wrist. I had it used against me when just playing hands before, but I’ve never used it personally. And I’ve been dabbling in mantis for years. I guess that’s why I just consider it dabbling…:o
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1218714]…I’ve never used that mantis claw backhanded strike. You know, the one where you hit with the back of your wrist.[/QUOTE]
When Adam Hsu taught me the mantis Lun Je form, there are a lot of such moves in that form. I asked him, “Can someone really kills anybody by using this move?” Adam was quite shoked by the straight forward question that I asked. Today, I still think that move doesn’t have much combat value.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1218724] “Can someone really kills anybody by using this move?”[/QUOTE] I’ve never tried to actually kill anybody. I’ve used martial arts techniques on the street plenty of times, but never with the intention to kill. That’s…well, that’s overkill.
I had someone bloody my nose with that hook hand technique. He wasn’t trying to kill me either.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1217222] I’m not too sure about “bridging” now. [/QUOTE]
change is a good thing. live to old age, learn to old age.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1217222]I start to emphasis more and more on wrist grabbing. If I can use one of my hands to grab one of my opponent’s wrist, I can soon turn a striking game into a grappling game. All I need is just one wrist grip. When my opponent tried to punch me with his free hand, I can use “combing hair” and move in. Since it’s to my advantage, I love to use that strategy. [/QUOTE]
i find when opponent is losing and turtling, or he is a beginner and very nervous, so his guard is very stiff, you can grab his wrist. but trying to grab a punch leads to black eye.
another important thing is idiots often grab the wrist to attempt a complicated qin na maneuver. you grab the wrist to punch the face.
[QUOTE=bawang;1218731]i find when opponent is losing and turtling, or he is a beginner and very nervous, so his guard is very stiff, you can grab his wrist. but trying to grab a punch leads to black eye.
another important thing is idiots often grab the wrist to attempt a complicated qin na maneuver. you grab the wrist to punch the face.[/QUOTE]
Wow that actually sounds like an observation from someone that has trained and fought some. If so, what style(s)?
[QUOTE=bawang;1218731]you grab the wrist to …[/QUOTE]
Actually you have no interest in your opponent’s wrist. It’s just an “initial pulling point” that can help you to pull your body into his. Your pulling point can be any part of his body. Since his wrist may be closer to you, to be able to disable his arm and to pull yourself in at the same time, the wrist grip will work just fine. The nice thing about it is if your opponent doesn’t want you to grab his wrist, he will move his hand out of your moving path. That will open his front door for you. So the wrist grab can be real and also can be fake.
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1218714]…I’ve never used that mantis claw backhanded strike. You know, the one where you hit with the back of your wrist. I had it used against me when just playing hands before, but I’ve never used it personally. And I’ve been dabbling in mantis for years. I guess that’s why I just consider it dabbling…:o[/QUOTE]
Some ways of using it are more useful than others.
Just up and hitting someone with it isn’t particularly advantageous.
Rebounding off an inside redirect into reverse mantis claw to the jaw or nose is fast and gets good results.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1218724]When Adam Hsu taught me the mantis Lun Je form, there are a lot of such moves in that form. I asked him, “Can someone really kills anybody by using this move?” Adam was quite shoked by the straight forward question that I asked. Today, I still think that move doesn’t have much combat value.[/QUOTE]
Jab doesn’t kill anybody either.
If you are talking about reverse mantis claw, use it to transition quickly from lead open hand defensive move to set up your power moves.
Not all strikes are interchangeable. There is specific context and strategy for using mantis claw etc.
[QUOTE=-N-;1218779]Jab doesn’t kill anybody either.[/QUOTE]
I also don’t think a jab can be used to kill either. Sometime in my nightmare that no matter how many punches that I have landed on my opponent’s head, my opponent is still standing and laught at me. Nothing is more scary to find out that your training is totally useless.
All our life, we try to develop a set of effective “finish moves”. Whether we will use it or not, that’s a different story. To me, effective finish moves are those moves that you can end a fight quickly.
It may be interest to separate those “effective finish moves” from those “not quite effective finish moves”. IMO, effective finish moves can be:
drop your elbow straight down on your opponent’s heart area when he is on the ground.
push your opponent’s face and smash the back of his head all the way to the hard ground.
kick the back of your opponent’s head when he is on the ground.
…
May be people can contribute other “effective finish moves” here.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1217222]I’m not too sure about “bridging” now. Our mind will always change with time. “Today’s we” may not even agree with “last year’s we”. I used to like bridging until oneday I sparred with my senior SC brother. He refused to let my arms to touch his arms. The moment that I tried to under hook or over hook on him, the moment that his arm just spin with my arm. It gave me an uncomfortable feeling as if I’m fighting against the thin air.
[/QUOTE]
You don’t mean to say this is new for you, do you? Your teacher never did this to you?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1217222]I start to emphasis more and more on wrist grabbing. If I can use one of my hands to grab one of my opponent’s wrist, I can soon turn a striking game into a grappling game. All I need is just one wrist grip. When my opponent tried to punch me with his free hand, I can use “combing hair” and move in. Since it’s to my advantage, I love to use that strategy.[/QUOTE]
Sounds contradictory.
Your senior showed you not to chase after a solid connection. But now you also say you start to emphasize more on grabbing?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1218780]I also don’t think a jab can be used to kill either. Sometime in my nightmare that no matter how many punches that I have landed on my opponent’s head, my opponent is still standing and laught at me. Nothing is more scary to find out that your training is totally useless.
All our life, we try to develop a set of effective “finish moves”. Whether we will use it or not, that’s a different story. To me, effective finish moves are those moves that you can end a fight quickly.
It may be interest to separate those “effective finish moves” from those “not quite effective finish moves”. IMO, effective finish moves can be:
drop your elbow straight down to your opponent’s heart area when he is on the ground.
push your opponent’s face and smash the back of his head to the hard ground.
kick the back of your opponent’s head when he is on the ground.
…
May be people can contribute other “effective finish moves” here.[/QUOTE]
Well, let’s just use the Mantis example you guys already started with elbow and takedown.
Both are right lead.
Other guy initiates a right lead attack while coming in.
You go into his attack, use inside mantis claw to redirect his lead, and bounce it into reverse mantis claw strike to his face. This gets you in and gives you left overhook and wrap on his right. Your right leg has steal step behind his right and you are all the way in. Use your right elbow and torque into his face and down while scissoring out his base. Take him all the way down to the ground. You have right arm control and can follow up with whatever grapple you prefer. Or just kick him in the head.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1216661]I don’t think this is a problem that happens in a school that engages in regular sparring and playing hands. It’s really not possible in a place that does that because reality does a fantastic job of weeding out the bull sh*t.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily. How many judo throws are there? How many do you regularly use? It’s not that some of the throws are BS, there’s just too many.
Your senior showed you not to chase after a solid connection. But now you also say you start to emphasize more on grabbing?[/QUOTE]
It’s contradictory. “Avoid bridging” is a striker’s strategy. “Construct bridging” is a grappler’s strategy. If you want to make your opponent to think that you are a striker, you use striker’s strategy. When you suddently switch to grappler’s strategy, it will cost a big surprise to your opponent. David C. K. Lin used “avoid bridging” strategy on me because he knew I’m a grappler as he is.
The difference between “wrist grabbing” and “forearm parrying” are almost unnoticeable. When your left hand move a clockwise circle toward your opponent right leading arm. If he
doesn’t move his right arm away from you, you can get a wrist grip on his right arm. You then tuck his arm away from your moving path, and move in.
rotates his right arm with you as if he tries to grab your left wrist instead, his front door will be open. His right hand is no longer in your moving path. You don’t need to tuck his hand. You can just move in.
In either cases, you keep moving your left arm until your left hand can reach to his right elbow (or upper arm).
So if his hand is there, that’s fine. If his hand is not there, that’s fine too. You don’t care one way or another.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1218789]My first two fights resulted in someone knocked out from a jab. If they later died from embarrassment, would that count?[/QUOTE]
It depends on the definition of jab. If you can use your jab as powerful as the XingYi Beng Chuan, I’m sure you can use it to kill.
[QUOTE=-N-;1218783]use inside mantis claw to redirect his lead, and bounce it into reverse mantis claw strike to his face.[/QUOTE]
I think the “reverse mantis claw” is used for speed. Of course you can replace it with a vertical punch. Since you may not have time to change your mantis claw into a fist, you just punch when your hand is still in the shape of mantis claw. When you want to achieve the maximum speed, do you still be able to achieve the maximum power? It’s very difficult if not impossible IMO. Any move that doesn’t generate “maximum power” won’t be considered as “finish move”.
With all due respect, no technique can be seriously regarded as a guaranteed finishing move – especially if you’re talking about killing someone. A finishing move could only really be called a finishing move after it ‘finishes’ someone. In reality, people are not very easy to kill without the use of weapons and you are more likely to accidentally kill someone with a simple technique such as a punch in the head that causes a severed artery or brain haemorrhage then by attempting to use a specific killing technique.
Old saying said, “If you don’t hit your opponent’s head, you may have to fight him from sun raise untill sun set.” “Finish move” also has to do with which part of your opponent’s body that you are dealing with too.
