[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1059204]Word…
2345678[/QUOTE]
oh, word???
techniques vs functions.
when I was young, I was a techno craft. I collected techniques. the more complexed one the better. the fancier one the better.
after a while, I started to notice that the more complexed ones needing more pre requisites, or less success rate.
the simple one or more direct and straighforward one has higher success rate.
so I stopped to collect but rather looked at the functional roles of each technique
and guess what we do not need that many techniques to do the same job/function
[QUOTE=Syn7;1059203]so tell me… when a wrestler flips a tractor tire that stands 5 feet tall up and down some field, is that a direct kung?
how about when a defensive tackle pushes the sled across the field with coach standing on top yelling obscenities??? is that a direct kung??? it sure develops a specific skill… even if it does enhance general stamina and stregnth…[/QUOTE]
If his “intent” is trying to execute a certain technique, and if his hands and feet map directly into the combat precised position, then I’ll call it “direct Kung”, otherwise I’ll call it “indirect Kung”.
Since I’m not a MMA guy. I can only state from the angle of the TCMA.
[QUOTE=SPJ;1059208] we do not need that many techniques to do the same job/function…[/QUOTE]
Many people said, “A step is a kick, and a punch is a throw”. I’ll never be able to figure that out. The Chinese throwing art taught me "(Shou Jiao Yao Jiao Dai Qin Chu) - “Your hands and feet position have to be precise” that was not emphasized enough in the Chinese strikimg art. For the same throw, different contact points will require different set up, and also different training method. The physical throw is easy. It’s how to set it up that is hard.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1059212]If his “intent” is trying to execute a certain technique, and if his hands and feet map directly into the combat precised position, then I’ll call it “direct Kung”, otherwise I’ll call it “indirect Kung”.
Since I’m not a MMA guy. I can only state from the angle of the TCMA.[/QUOTE]
Since you are as you say only a TCMA guy maybe you should not tell guys who do MMA what MMA training is or is not
All sports training goes from the general to the specific…all sports training including MMA:
You have to build a base first, both endurance and strength wise using basic conditioning and strength exercieses (at this time you use your skill sessions to transfer that strength and conditioning and make it sports specific) as your training intensifys you start to tailor it and make it more specific: if you are fighting 5 x 3 min thai rounds your conditioning and strength work will be different than if you are fighting 2 x 5 min rounds of MMA. The tools you use become more specific, punching against bands or heavy pads, grappling with dummies and using throwing dummies etc (hell martin rooneys guys use sledge hammers in a very specific way to help mimic judo throws) you use fresh heavy partners in your grappling training to further develop sports specific strength and conditioning
taylor.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1058936]I think, with all due respect, you haven’t seen much MMA training
they may not call them “kung” but that doesn’t mean they are different[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Frost;1059220]Since you are as you say only a TCMA guy maybe you should not tell guys who do MMA what MMA training is or is not.[/QUOTE]
The only thing that I have said in this thread was, “Now we are talking about ‘Kung’ in TCMA that MMA guys just don’t beliegve it ever exists”. I was talking about MMA guys don’t believe Kung training exist in TCMA (as if all TCMA guys are form performers) which has nothing to do with whether Kung training exist in MMA or not.
This mis-understanding could be similiar to the mis-understanding of “WORD”. I’m a “cross training” guy. I just don’t cross train boxing, MT, Judo, and BJJ if that’s the defiinition of MMA.
@ Frost - I think a good point has been made, a point of differentiation, the value of which is open to debate.
By training some of our more esoteric (or call them inefficient) techniques in such high repetitions, in isolation, a ‘special’ skill is developed. Not saying that other skills aren’t developed as well, but some are just ‘special’. Examples of ‘special’ skills vary, and litter this thread.
It goes back to that metaphor I brought up earlier, classical vs jazz.
A hip hop dancer vs a ballett dancer. Discipline vs creativity.
The superior fighter will of course have both in spades.
But, I just don’t see a similar training concept in Modern MA. All the focus goes into strength, endurance and MMA training.
I think its also a post-fighting age thing, because you start looking for new outlets and have a good grasp on the fundamentals, plus some…you’d reckon…
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1059222]a point of differentiation, the value of which is open to debate.[/QUOTE]
It will be fun to find out the similiar Kung training between TCMA and MMA instead of the difference.
- The TCMA stone lock is similiar to the MMA KB.
- The TCMA weight pulley is similiar to the MMA rubberband pulling.
- …
The “single leg” in TCMA is called (Kou), and the “double legs” in TCMA is called (Lou). Both are using the “single head weight bar” to enhance it. In TCMA, there are 2 kind of single head weight bar. The heavy one is used to drag along the ground. The light one is used to throw over the head.
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5378/koue.jpg
What kind of Kung training is used to “enhance” the “single leg” and “double legs” in MMA? Does anybody care to share?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1059212]If his “intent” is trying to execute a certain technique, and if his hands and feet map directly into the combat precised position, then I’ll call it “direct Kung”, otherwise I’ll call it “indirect Kung”.
Since I’m not a MMA guy. I can only state from the angle of the TCMA.[/QUOTE]
so then football has direct kungs??? so why cant mma? also i think most people realise tcma has strength and conditioning in all the systems… al MA’s do… every single one… they have to or they wont work…
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1059213]“Your hands and feet position have to be precise” that was not emphasized enough in the Chinese strikimg art. [/QUOTE]
thats because they actually threw eachother and knew whatr it took to throw somebody from experience thru trial and error in practice… unfortunately, since alot of tcma do not spar full contact with their striking, they never learn what it really takes to land effective strikes in an aggressive situation…
not all tcma is like this, but alot are… the ones that actually spar full contact are usually pretty good fighters… atleast against the kind of opponents they spar against… the wider range of opponents, the wider range of effective combat skill and knowledge…
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1059222]@ Frost - I think a good point has been made, a point of differentiation, the value of which is open to debate.
By training some of our more esoteric (or call them inefficient) techniques in such high repetitions, in isolation, a ‘special’ skill is developed. Not saying that other skills aren’t developed as well, but some are just ‘special’. Examples of ‘special’ skills vary, and litter this thread.
It goes back to that metaphor I brought up earlier, classical vs jazz.
A hip hop dancer vs a ballett dancer. Discipline vs creativity.
The superior fighter will of course have both in spades.
But, I just don’t see a similar training concept in Modern MA. All the focus goes into strength, endurance and MMA training.
I think its also a post-fighting age thing, because you start looking for new outlets and have a good grasp on the fundamentals, plus some…you’d reckon…[/QUOTE]
They might litter this thread but I;m thick can you give a few examples please!
Because MMA guys isolate drills to work on specific techniques or skills all the time
Are you talking about techniques done in isolation to develop a skill (which is done all the time in MMA and grappling), we spend hours isolating the shot, isolating how to jab isolating just the clinch or a specific attack from it, and this continues all through your classes and career
Or are you talking about developing a specific skill? which is again done all the time in MMA, want to work on explosiveness, then you do this, want to work on your short range power punches again this is done…want to work on your ability to in fight, then this is isolated as well
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1059223]It will be fun to find out the similiar Kung training between TCMA and MMA instead of the difference.
- The TCMA stone lock is similiar to the MMA KB.
- The TCMA weight pulley is similiar to the MMA rubberband pulling.
- …
The “single leg” in TCMA is called (Kou), and the “double legs” in TCMA is called (Lou). Both are using the “single head weight bar” to enhance it. In TCMA, there are 2 kind of single head weight bar. The heavy one is used to drag along the ground. The light one is used to throw over the head.
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5378/koue.jpg
What kind of Kung training is used to “enhance” the “single leg” and “double legs” in MMA? Does anybody care to share?[/QUOTE]
Partner training using various different weights of partners, some work against bands practising their shots but the actual lifting portion of the takedown is done with a partner
MMA guys tend to isolate drills and use them with live resistance seeing that this is the closest you can get to the actual skill, otherwise no matter what you are doing it is still indirect by its very nature
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1059223]It will be fun to find out the similiar Kung training between TCMA and MMA instead of the difference.
- The TCMA stone lock is similiar to the MMA KB.
- The TCMA weight pulley is similiar to the MMA rubberband pulling.
- …
The “single leg” in TCMA is called (Kou), and the “double legs” in TCMA is called (Lou). Both are using the “single head weight bar” to enhance it. In TCMA, there are 2 kind of single head weight bar. The heavy one is used to drag along the ground. The light one is used to throw over the head.
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5378/koue.jpg
What kind of Kung training is used to “enhance” the “single leg” and “double legs” in MMA? Does anybody care to share?[/QUOTE]
there are so so so many similarities in the kungs… TONS…
but…
mma doesnt have as many specific kungs as tcma… i mean some tcma will have a program to train each finger… tcma has been overthought to an extent and is absolutely full to the brim with ideas… i feel the best systems tcma have to offer are the ones who have pared down their style to the bare essentials stressing solid foundation above all else and stregth and conditioning would be a close second to that… these two being far above all else… but one that also stresses the trial and error method in the most realistic ways our creative minds can come up with… to put more time into trying our techniques in full contact sparring a whole lot more than any forms training or shadow boxing… those are warm ups for after stretching, nothing more…
i know there are tcma schools out there that are exactly as i described…
[QUOTE=Frost;1059228]live resistance [/QUOTE]
It’s hard to have training partners 24/7. Sometime it may be too hard to use your training partner as your dummy (that’s why heavy bag is designed).
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1059230]It’s hard to have training partners 24/7. Sometime it may be too hard to use your training partner as your dummy (that’s why heavy bag is designed).[/QUOTE]
True but the single best way to train any throw is with a live partner, nothing else really comes close to mimicking how the body moves and how he reacts
Strikers use the heavy bag but they will all agree its nothing like actually sparring, and throwing a dummy or lifting a dummy again is not the same as doing it to a partner.
Personally if not in class I would either be resting and recovering or using outside time for general conditioning and general strength work, and then using class time to transfer that to my specific sport. If I wanted to get better at double legs I would use them as part of my warm up to leg the correct moement down when still fresh, work on leg and core strength with squats and dead lifts, work on the explosiveness with OL lifts, jumps and bounds, and then use class time to actually work the takedowns. I have found mimicking my sport in my strength work to be counter productive, but that’s just me
That’s why the TCMA defines “skill training” as “school work” and “Kung training” as “home work”. There are also “direct (special) Kung training” and “indirect (general) Kung training”.
IMO, there are certain skill just cannot be enhanced by “indirect (general) Kung training” only. But I’m sure 500 years from now, MMA will develop more “direct (special) Kung training”. What we may call MMA today will be called as TMA in the future.
I think the intent of this thread is getting a bit off.
Instead of being another MMA vs TCMA thread… let’s revise the discussion a bit to get it back on track which is TCMA Approaches that we like.
YouKnowWho wrote that he enjoys the specific “Kung” training methods, and, when you see them they are actually pretty cool and useful.
Someone else made the comparison stating that MMA has “Kung” type of training… ok.
So where can we take the discussion from here? Let’s say that TCMA Kung training is worth investigating because it enhances martial ability… and as an example, MMA guys use a version of their own “kung” training to get ready for the ring.
So, let’s find out what some of those TCMA “kung” training methods are so that we can determine for ourselves which ones we’d like to try. Please refrain from using personal blanket judgements with saying “oh, that’s a bad one” or whatever. Just share, observe, and enjoy.
gong training in CMA can be general and specific as pointed out
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there are soft and hard.
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there are grabbing, holding, lifting, striking, throwing, leg sweeping, leg hooking. bending back forward and backward—
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using weight/lead as tied on ankle, forearm, weight lifting—
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using pole or poles
it is too big a topic
breath work, running, swimming the general strength and endurance conditioning
conditioning of the hand, forearm, back/chest etc etc are hard or yin gong
on and on
the most important but not discussed enough
is pai da gong
or self strike from light, moderate to intense/heavy
all over our body parts
so that we know how to deal with or lessen if not how to take a beating
of all kinds that land on our both soft and hard parts of our body
using bamboo brush, stick covered with cloth, --staff
well, in modern time, we use soft rubber first and hit away our body all over
I usually use my own fist or palm and strike my self starting lightly and then moderately
right fist hitting left palm, right front foot hitting back of left lower leg etc etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw&feature=grec_index
listen to what he says at the end