Any one know how far he got? did he do the iron wire form etc?
[QUOTE=aussie1981;1100861]Any one know how far he got? did he do the iron wire form etc?[/QUOTE]
not sure, but he didn’t propagate the style.
He propagated Bak Hsing CLF.
He propagated Bak Hsing CLF.
Tam Sam didn’t propagate Buk Sing or Bak Hsing CLF at all. HE propagated HUNG SING choy lee fut. While over the generations his CLF evolved into what it is today, initially BUK SING was only a name change.
According to the late Lun Chee, Tam Sam’s school was called Hung Sing Tam Kwoon. It was his students that later encouraged him to change the name to Buk Sing. This took place around Chui Cheung’s time i believe.
UPDATE: I asked some Buk Sing sifu’s i know and they said yes, Tam Sam SHOULD have learned the Iron Wire, but, it’s NOT taught in Buk Sing today.
Meaning of word: PROPOGATE prop·a·gate (prp-gt)
v. prop·a·gat·ed, prop·a·gat·ing, prop·a·gates
v.tr.
- To cause (an organism) to multiply or breed.
2. To breed (offspring).
3. To transmit (characteristics) from one generation to another. - To cause to extend to a broader area or larger number; spread: missionaries who propagate the faith.
5. To make widely known; publicize: propagate a rumor. - Physics To cause (a wave, for example) to move in some direction or through a medium; transmit.
v.intr. - To have offspring; multiply.
- To extend to a broader area or larger number; spread.
- Physics To move through a medium.
Tam Sam did Propogate Buk Sing. He is the Founder of this Branch.
That is what his students were taught and continue to spread. [B]Tam Sams Buk Sing version of Choy Lee Fut.
[/B] See English meaning of word PROPOGATE above
We all know there are 3 Distinct Branches - Chan family Hung Sing, Hung Sing and Buk Sing of Choy lee fut system.
Sifu Frank you seem to strenuously want to combine Buk Sing with your Hung Sing when you know and are aware Buk Sing are their own people, their OWN DISTICT BRANCH.
Sifu Frank below is an exert from your own blog:
Now, Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut is basically the Hung Sing Kwoon, [SIZE=“3”]but with a little different flavor since its founder Tam Sam was always striving to better his gung fu. [/SIZE]But the Buk Sing name came about because Tam Sam moved to the northern side of town, where they called themselves Siu Buk Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut style. But that was just too long to say to people everyday, so eventually Tam Sam, who was a die hard Hung Sing Man, was talked into calling his school the Buk Sing or Northern Victory Choy Lee Fut. Within Tam Sam’s Choy Lee Fut [SIZE=“3”]he developed things not taught in other branches. [/SIZE]He was a very forward thinking man and evolutionary, makin major contributions to the Choy Lee Fut system.
So it was not just a name change, but also different forward thinking techniques and methods not taught in other Branches as you say above.
This is why Buk Sing is different and why Tam Sam did PROPOGATE Buk Sing to his students and followers.
Back to the Drawing board for you huh? CLF history just isn’t your thing i guess. LMAO. too bad for you.
Instead of claiming I am wrong…SHOW ME. Can you? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT though.
Although you don’t deserve it, i’ll throw you a bone. My stance on Tam Sam isn’t based on what i think over what i learned from other masters of both Hung Sing and Buk Sing around the world.
I will happily TEACH you what you don’t know.
Cheers hskwarrior, was it the Lacey’s you spoke to? i met Vince and Shane at a seminar in Perth back in 2002. Good people.
[QUOTE=aussie1981;1101635]Cheers hskwarrior, was it the Lacey’s you spoke to? i met Vince and Shane at a seminar in Perth back in 2002. Good people.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=“2”]aussie1981, since you are from Perth you should speak to Master George Michaelson from Perth Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut Academy. He is at your doorstep, he is Buk Sing and he will surely provide you with accurate answers. [/SIZE]
Wasting your time with know it all retards on this forum, will lead you down the wrong path… :rolleyes:
Brief History Lesson:
Q.Did Jeong Hung Sing study with Grandmaster Chan Heung?
A. YES
Q.Did he complete his studies with him ( Grandmaster Chan Heung ) ?
A. NO
Q.Did Jeong Hung Sing further his studies with the Green Grass Monk?
A.YES
Q.Did Jeong Hung Sing synthesise his learning from both these Teachers and from his previous teachers?
A.YES but mostly used Fut Gar to create Fut San Hung Sing
Q.Did Jeong Hung Sing create Fut San Hung Sing?
A.YES
Q.Did he propogate Fut San Hung Sing?
A.YES
Now…
Q.Did Tam Sam study Hung Kuen at a young age?
A.YES
Q.Did he learn from Hung Sing Master Lui Charn?
A.YES
Q.Did he learn the whole system Forms etc from Master Lui Charn?
A.NO
Q.Why?
A. Cause Tam Sam beat up his Si Sooks/Si Hings while his Master was away and he got expelled from the school
Q.Did Tam Sam love to fight?
A.YES
Q. Did Tam Sam continue fighting other styles/people to further develop his skill and create different better methods in fighting?
A.YES
Q.Did Tam Sam evolve the little learning he got from his Master Lui Charn?
A.YES
[B]NOW REMEMBER TAM SAM DIDNT EVEN KNOW ANY OF THE FORMS OF HIS HUNG SING STYLE… OBVIOUSLY HE ONLY KNEW A LITTLE BIT OF THE STYLE THEN.
TAM SAM LEARNT THE FORMS LATER ON FROM CROSS TRAINING WITH ONE OF HIS SI HINGS, WHILE FURTHER DEVELOPING HIS OWN PERSONAL GROWTH AND TECHNIQUES BY ADDING TO WHAT HE WAS TAUGHT AND BETTERING IT.[/B]
Q.Did Tam Sam create a different version of the VERY LITTLE kung fu he learnt from his Hung Sing Teacher?
A.YES
Q.Does this mean he PROPOGATED his new improved version with different fighting methods and techniques, not used in Fut San Hung Sing to his students?
A.YES, OBVIOUSLY.
Sounds like Jeong Hung Sing and Tam Sam had alot in common, like creating a unique style of their own incorporating knowledge from their Masters and from Tam Sams standpoint, his own fighting experience with other masters and passing it on to future generations.
[SIZE=“3”]So YES, TAM SAM Did Propogate Buk Sing.[/SIZE]
Now aussie1981 I hope this helps, but if not, speak to those closest to the source, who are actually Buk Sing Master George Michaelson from Perth where you live, will have answers for you.
Maybe Buk Sing should just be called BUK SING FUT GAR 
Former student of Vince and George mate, thought i’d throw the question out there. Big fan of Tarm Sarms forward thinking, attitude to change thing’s and the cutting down of next to useless crappy forms and training functional skill. 
No offence intended to those who love to training forms i just gone off them, never my favourite thing to train;)
Hi aussie1981…
Although I know the lacey brothers, no, they are not my source of information. one of the people i asked about the iron wire is a well known Buk Sing Sifu in Hong Kong. I’ve met Kong Hing and am friends with his daughter in addition to a good number of other buk sing lineage folk as well. In fact, my source of info is the same source used by the Laceys. So i have a good connection to the Buk Sing lineage to draw my history info from.
This hungsingboxer loser is quoting my own research and spewing it like its his. now thats funny. He should have tried to discover what TAM SAMS own student said about his teacher. too bad HungSingBoxer doesn’t know about that. he would have changed his perspective.
The fact that you strayed from the crap in forms is awesome. If people are planning to strictly fight with CLF forms should be the least more important aspect of training. Personally, i still train my forms, but, LOVE the fighting aspect of my Hung Sing CLF…always have.
How sifu George can offer you the more accurate answers as opposed to the many other HIGH PROFILE Buk Sing sifu’s out there is beyond my comprehension.
So you said former…what do you do now?
Doing a style called Yang Mian now, it’s a family style of Mian chuan that’s over here in Australia. No forms apart from chi kung, it’s a system composed of fa jing and then expressing that through free movement.
Still train buk sing at home when i get a chance and still love the style, iff i had the time i’d get back into it at either Vince or George’s kwoon’s. Sounds like you’ve got some pretty high contacts within the Buk sing family, do you train Buk Sing aswell or pure Hing Sing?
thats good to hear. like yourself, i too focus on the combat side of HSCLF primarily because my students were constantly getting into street fights with one of them almost being stabbed to death but his gung fu saved him. ever since then, forms have been on the back burner and now no new student learns forms in my club until they know how to use the basics of the system in sparring first.
In my younger days going back to about 7 years old i got into karate, judo, and tai mantis prior to learning Hung Sing CLF. when being in foster homes took me too far away to keep training at my teachers school, i took up some tae kwon do but didn’t like it too much. from that point on i completely focused on my hung sing kuen.
Since i got serious about teaching, i haven’t trained under my sifu for a bit. I teach and work at perfecting what i have already which is far more than enough to last a life time. the things i’ve picked up from my sifu are in my opinion incredible as i’ve grown up under him since the age of 13.
Hola Hskwarrior,
was browsing the net when i came across this website with information similar to what you’re explaining…thought it was pretty interesting…
quote: The name of the school was then called Hong Sing Tam Kwoon. It was much later that Master Tam moved to a place in Guangzhou called “Siew Buk” (Siu Buk) to continue his teaching in Hong Sing martial arts. As popularity of the school grew, some of Master Tam’s senior students, in particular, Lei Kum, Jou Hin and a few others proposed to adopt the name “Buk Sing” to distinguish their school from other Hong Sing schools (by that time Hong Sing Kwoon was such a popular name in pugilism in Southern China that there was a proliferation of branches everywhere). Despite Sifu Chui Cheung’s protest, the name “Buk Sing” was finally adopted for Hong Sing Tam Kwoon, as there was overwhelming support to this proposal. End Qoute
as well, i found this:
Do you know what Buk Sing stood for? It stood for Hung SING CLF as practised by Tarm Sarm and his students from the district of Siu BUK, hence Buk Sing Gwoon.
If you seak to the elders, Tarm Sarm himself was reluctant to change the school name to Buk Sing, it was more widely used only after his death. Also it has always been CLF Buk Sing Gwoon. Putting Buk Sing infront of CLF was considered bad manners in the olden days.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;
How sifu George can offer you the more accurate answers as opposed to the many other HIGH PROFILE Buk Sing sifu’s out there is beyond my comprehension.?[/QUOTE]
Sifu George has Over 30 years experience so I’d say he is very credible.
Also you standing next to Kong Hing in a picture is not much of a meeting. Your just a chubby gwai lo, standing in a picture. Kong Hing doesn’t speak English so your conversations were not with him so your info would be 2nd or 3rd hand.
I’ve emailed some Buk Sing people so hope they reply as I’d like further info myself… Any Buk Sing out there care to add anything?
Your not that important as you make yourself out to be Franky…
Also you standing next to Kong Hing in a picture is not much of a meeting. Your just a chubby gwai lo, standing in a picture. Kong Hing doesn’t speak English so your conversations were not with him so your info would be 2nd or 3rd hand.
I’ve emailed some Buk Sing people so hope they reply as I’d like further info myself… Any Buk Sing out there care to add anything?
bUT I HAPPILY REPEAT…
[B]Tam Sam didn’t propagate Buk Sing or Bak Hsing CLF at all. HE propagated HUNG SING choy lee fut. While over the generations his CLF evolved into what it is today, initially BUK SING was only a name change.
According to the late Lun Chee, Tam Sam’s school was called Hung Sing Tam Kwoon. It was his students that later encouraged him to change the name to Buk Sing. This took place around Chui Cheung’s time i believe.
UPDATE: I asked some Buk Sing sifu’s i know and they said yes, Tam Sam SHOULD have learned the Iron Wire, but, it’s NOT taught in Buk Sing today. [/B]
its funny, you remind me of this 54 wannabe gangster/ Man of God who recently got busted for theft…LMAO
Now this is some history of Tam Sam.
A friend of Tam Samfs practiced gung fu at a Hung Sing Kwoon under Master Lui Chun. Eventually Tam Sam gave in to his curiosity- because he passed the school everyday-and went in intending to see if their gung fu was worth its weight in salt. He had heard good things about Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut and wanted to know first hand.
Arrogantly he walked into Master Lui Chunfs school and asked if anyone wanted to spar a few rounds with him. Wong Sum who was a senior student stepped forward and accepted the challenge while Master Lui sat back and observed the match.
During the match Wong Sum struck Tam Sam with a powerful Sow Choy. Tam Sam managed to hit Wong Sum in the ribs. Then Wong Sum used his Hung Sing Jo Ma Kwa Sow technique which instantly ended the fight because Tam Sam was unable to continue the match.
Tam Sam was very disappointed by his own performance and was desparate to save face. Thinking that since Master Lui Chun was advanced in age Tam Sam felt the he would have a better chance at defeating him. His friend urgently tried to pursuade Tam Sam to change his mind and cautioned him that something like this was unwise. Still, Tam Sam ignored his friends warning and proceeded with the challenge.
Master Lui Chun never gave Tam Sam a chance. In a matter of seconds he floored Tam Sam who was scolded by his friend for acting so foolishly and said “see, I told you so. You are lucky my sifu controlled his punches or you would have been seriously hurt.”
Convinced that Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut was more than effective Tam Sam asked Master Lui to accept him as a student. Since Tam Sam was already trained in the martial arts Master Lui agreed to take him in. Only a few years later Tam Sam excelled in the Hung Sing fighting art, and was eventually appointed as the assistant instructor teaching the younger students who would call him Sam Sook.
Regardless of anyonefs position in life Tam Sam wouldnft let anyone bully him. For example, one afternoon he got into an altercation with his Si-Sook (gung fu uncle) Ngan Yiu Ting and a few of his family members. The incident was later referred to as the “Kuen Da Sam Ngan” which means "fist that defeated 3 Nganfs, after he beat all of them up.
Master Lui Chun discovered what happened, however his hands were tied, there wasnft much he could do. It was against the code of Choy Lee Fut to fight another brother, but to beat up an elder left Master Lui with no other options but to ask Tam Sam to leave.
Unfortunately at this point Tam Sam had not completed his training under Master Lui. But what he didnft already he later learned it from his friend Wong To who trained with Tam Sam very hard.
To Tam Sam the only way to get better was to go out and challenge people and learn from those experiences. Often these challenges end up in bloody battles, and he began to develop a name for himself as a fighter. Yet, he realized that his reputation may begin to tarnish the of Master Lui Chun and the Hung Sing Kwoon.
Out of respect for his sifu Tam Sam moved his school north into a temple called Siu Buk Di Mew. He named his school the Siu Buk Hung Sing Kwoon. Over time students such as Chow Hing and Lai Gum pursuaded Tam Sam to shorten the schools name to Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut because it was too inconvenient to repeat over and over, and he agreed, ultimately creating the 3rd branch to the Choy Lee Fut system.
Following in the tradition of the Hung Sing Kwoon Tam Sam had a pair of double couplets made. They read: “Turn around like a tiger raising its head, and punch like a dragon raising its claws.”
The second read: “Hands are like the wind blowing out the candle, and The footwork is like walking on clouds.”
Since Tam Sam was so adept at fighting he went on to create new techinques and redefine old ones,. An “extra in means extra power” was his motto for his school. He would invite many of his gung fu brothers and elders over for intensive, in-depth studies of Choy Lee Futfs techniques. It is then that he became known for his Lin Wan Chop Choy (continuos cyclic panther punches).
He often encouraged his students to go out and challenge and would preach about how more experience you get the better your skills would be. Tam Sam loved to fight so much that he hired a biographer to record his encounters. The book was to be called “the record of 100 victorious fights” but the author passed away in Hong Kong during its early stages and was never completed.
After the formation of the Republic of China was formed in 1912 the following decades were filled with the government publicly promoting martial arts as national treasure. They held regular competitions throughout the year, and because of this the Kwantung and KwopZhou Chinese Martial Arts Associations were formed.
The government also invited many northern styles to come to the south and teach gung fu. A competition was to be held in Canton with the southern styles competing against the northern styles. Ku Yu Jeong, a well known northern stylist who was renowned for hos iron body techniques was nominated to head the northern Team.
Tam Sam was nominated to be the southern teams coach. And his reputation was so widespread that even Ku Yu Jeong heard of him and regarded him as a fellow hero and actually wanted to train with him. But Tam Sam had different intentions, he wanted to fight Ku Yu Jeong. In place of fighting an arrangement was set up between them to each exchange a group of students for cross training purposes.
In his heart Tam Sam was a die hard Hung Sing man and did not want to learn anything northern himself. Some of his favorite techniques were Kwa-Sow-Chop (Back hand, Sweeping Fist, and stabbing punch). It was techniques like these that he used to defeat many of his challengers. Although he preferred the wider horse stance and the longer ranging punches of the Hung Sing Kwoon.
Then, during World War II and the Japanese invasion Tam Sam was elected to head the "DI DO (Big Sword) training camp. Durning this time he was also a member of the Canton National Board of Martial arts, a husband and a father. Sadly, in 1942 Tam Sam passed away at the age of 69 years old.
Finally in 2002, members and elders of the Choy Lee Fut Buk Sing branch moved Tam Sams original burial site to its final rest place back in his home town of Hoi Ping, may he rest in peace.
Mouth Boxer
You’re right, I’m nobody.
YOU are the master. YOU are HUNG SING BOXER arguing over BUK SING history.
[SIZE=“5”]LMAO[/SIZE]
*** Yet if you had the knowledge, you wouldn’t have to email anyone for any more information. *** LMAO
Oh, I also prefer to be a chubby Gwai lo over a 54 year old balding wannabe gangster who got busted for theft and pretends to be a PREACHER…ANYDAY! I feel so bad for this guys son!
hungsingboxer
maybe you should change your name to mouth boxer. it seems like you are one of those trolls who chooses to hide behind a stage name. feeling pretty safe behind your compooter huh?
If you were more than “FRANKY” is why aren’t you going by your real name so that we might bask in your awesomeness?