I picked up the book “Tang Shi Quan Shu: Pugilistic Art of the Tang Family. Outer Techniques of Da Hong Quan.”
The book was published in 1933 and contains several forms and drills. I was hoping there would be some older perspective on the Da Hong and Xiao Hong forms, but the versions demonstrated are quite different from the Songshan forms.
I’m wondering if anyone knows anything about these forms. Are they related to Song Shan or not? Also there is a very cool form I’m unfamiliar with, called Huang Long Quan. (Yellow Dragon Fist.) A You Tube search came up empty for this one. Anybody know if anyone is still training this form; or any info…curious…
Even the Songshan sets vary from coach to coach. Small and large frames are apart of the official Shaolin curriculum but that doesn’t mean every coach teaches them the exact same way. In my 15 year career I’ve gone back and forth between 3 Shaolin monks and each one has a different take on the small and large frames.
[QUOTE=Shaolin;1190778]Even the Songshan sets vary from coach to coach. Small and large frames are apart of the official Shaolin curriculum but that doesn’t mean every coach teaches them the exact same way. In my 15 year career I’ve gone back and forth between 3 Shaolin monks and each one has a different take on the small and large frames.[/QUOTE]
I’m aware of that, but these don’t seem to be the same forms at all; just wondering is there any relation whatsoever. Not the usual, “this technique instead of that one,” or reordering of sequences.
Yes, I’ve always been a bit unsure about these ‘Shaolin Kungfu Online Library’ books after seeing bits and pieces of them online. Do any of them have real Songshan Shaolin stuff in them? I mean, they seem to have some legitimate training ideas in them, it just doesn’t seem like Shaolin to me at all.
Currently in most Shaolin schools they only train the first form of Song Shan XiaoHongQuan.
Actually it has 4 forms (Yilu, Erlu, SanLu, SiLu XiaoHongQuan). The later forms contain techniques closer to the set in this book. YOu can find them if you look really hard, around Song Shan. Together with the forms of DaHOng and of LaoPaoQuan they form the oldest part of the Shaolin system.
There is certainly some relation but then there is between all styles in China.
Hong (Vast) Quan is one of the more common names and has many variations.
SOng SHans is not the first Hong Quan.
But if you see the rest of Shaolins XiaoHongQuan, the other forms, you will recognise a lot more of the technique.
I expect the one in the book is a XHQ that left Shaolin centuries ago and retains core techniques but uses different form.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1190765]I was hoping there would be some older perspective on the Da Hong and Xiao Hong forms, but the versions demonstrated are quite different from the Songshan forms.
[/QUOTE]
hong quan is not a style. its a generic name for boxing in northern china. thats why its considered the oldest “mother” style of shaolin kung fu.
red fist means to box, to get blood on your fists.
[QUOTE=bawang;1190807]hong quan is not a style. its a generic name for boxing in northern china. thats why its considered the oldest “mother” style of shaolin kung fu.
red fist means to box, to get blood on your fists.[/QUOTE]
True, true.
HOwever shaolin Hong is not red, but the same character as in HungGar. HOng means Vast, immense. I’m told a long time ago, Hong (immense) was used in a kind of slang way to mean ‘good’, ‘impressive’, ‘powerful’. So when they were looking through techniques they kept together a bunch which were ‘Good fists’ and created Hong Quan. In this way it is also a generic name for boxing. The on in the book is also this Hong (vast).
Interestingly Shaanxi’s Hong (red) fist claims to be considerably older than the yellow river Hong (vast) styles. They claim to date back to QinShiHuangs armies. I’m not convinced. But, maybe.
HOwever shaolin Hong is not red, but the same character as in HungGar. HOng means Vast, immense. I’m told a long time ago, Hong (immense) was used in a kind of slang way to mean ‘good’, ‘impressive’, ‘powerful’. So when they were looking through techniques they kept together a bunch which were ‘Good fists’ and created Hong Quan. In this way it is also a generic name for boxing. The on in the book is also this Hong (vast).
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history of hong quan name changes
-hong quan from the military spread to civilians 400 years ago. shaolin temple started learning boxing around this time.
-shaolin temple changed written name to flood after qing government demolished all their branch temples
second widespread name change in 1850s to honor taping rebel leader hong xiuquan;
yang family hongquan changed name to taijiquan
third wave changed name in 1900 to meihua quan(boxer rebellion)
last wave changed written name to swan in 1920s to distance from politics
source: Cheng chongdou. 1616. shaolin questions and answers
An zaifeng, 2008. overview of 3 haymakers
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1190830]
Interestingly Shaanxi’s Hong (red) fist claims to be considerably older than the yellow river Hong (vast) styles. They claim to date back to QinShiHuangs armies. I’m not convinced. But, maybe.[/QUOTE]
shaanxi hongquan is indeed the oldest hong quan style, they date back 400 years. they are oldest in the sense that they preserved ming dynasty traditions
The (Red Fist) is one of the 5 branches of the longfist system. The northern (Red Fist) is different from the southern (Hong Fist). Some may say that the southern Hong Fist came from the northern Red Fist.
The Shaolin Red Fist came from outside.
Red fist, Shaanxi local martial arts, also known as the fist of Shaanxi Province. Formation began in the Qin and Han, Guanzhong, also known as the fist; development in the Tang dynasty, the song is called West family fist, Ming and Qing dynasty formally known as the Red fist. “Dig cheeks Palm”, “Dragon exploration and claw”, “que earthworm”, “monkey Wang Jing” are a few fist utility contains detailed explanations of Shaanxi Province.
300( )
Big fist, a saying from the Yuan, Ming, Shaanxi local martial arts evolved red fist along with other martial arts, has a history of more than 300 years; another big fist civil Secret Societies in the South during the Qing dynasty triad (Hong Men) on the pretext of nanguan in the Shaolin martial arts. Second of which is widely accepted. Big fist of the South is known for the five forms boxing and Northern big fist to ten (b) boxing (boxing) can be injected.
[QUOTE=Sima Rong;1190980]I thought that in Songshan Shaolin Hong Quan (Da and Xiao), the Hong was meaningful in terms of the fist form and its use, and the Hong meant ‘flood’.[/QUOTE]
WHatever the history of the name, and it is very convoluted, it has evolved to the point where the name is in a way a reflection on the style yes.
Hong means ‘Vast, Profound, Immense’
When you combine this character with water (shui) it means Flood. Hong Shui, immense water—flood. However this is by far its most common use, and the character itself contains the element of water, so in itself it does also mean Flood, Deluge.
This implies something which is flowing and unstoppable… So Hong Fist is a good name.
I don’t know if the Shaolin temple ever referred to it as Red in earlier times, it is possible. I know for at least 360 years it has been Hong (flood) fist as I visited a small village whose Hong Quan had seperated from shaolin at this time. In their Quan Pu, it was called Hong (Flood) fist. And it was very close to todays XHQ, but more simple. I also found an even earlier Shaolin XHQ (Mogou Pai) also called HOng (Flood). Their Quan Pu it was also called Hong .
Bear in mind the two names sound identical, and people were not always so well literate in China. As a result it is very easy to confuse the names, even for the Chinese. And for this reason many styles have sects which use different characters for what sounds like the same name.
I don’t know if the Shaolin temple ever referred to it as Red in earlier times, it is possible. I know for at least 360 years it has been Hong (flood) fist as I visited a small village whose Hong Quan had seperated from shaolin at this time. In their Quan Pu, it was called Hong (Flood) fist. And it was very close to todays XHQ, but more simple. I also found an even earlier Shaolin XHQ (Mogou Pai) also called HOng (Flood). Their Quan Pu it was also called Hong .
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thats right, like i said shaolin temple was among the first to change the name. the qing government refers to hong quan only as red fist, even until 1900s.
shaanxi was a pro qing province, so the martial artists there retained the name red.
the name doesnt really matter, but people seem to think shaolin hong quan is special super duper hong quan.
[QUOTE=bawang;1190890]history of hong quan name changes
-hong quan from the military spread to civilians 400 years ago. shaolin temple started learning boxing around this time.
-shaolin temple changed written name to flood after qing government demolished all their branch temples
second widespread name change in 1850s to honor taping rebel leader hong xiuquan;
yang family hongquan changed name to taijiquan
third wave changed name in 1900 to meihua quan(boxer rebellion)
last wave changed written name to swan in 1920s to distance from politics
source: Cheng chongdou. 1616. shaolin questions and answers
An zaifeng, 2008. overview of 3 haymakers
shaanxi hongquan is indeed the oldest hong quan style, they date back 400 years. they are oldest in the sense that they preserved ming dynasty traditions[/QUOTE]
So you’re saying Shaolin has been doing martial arts for only 400 years? Isn’t there record of Shaolin Monks participating in battle in 621 A.D.?
Most of the longstanding Shaolin forum posters here and all of the serious Shaolin researchers are familiar with this book. It’s a good read and will explain, in part, where this notion originates.
Tang Family Hong Quan is exactly what it says it is, a family style, from Sichuan.
There are Hong Quan (written with an character) forms all over china. There are also Da and Xiao Hong Quan forms and styles all over China.
There have been Hong Quan forms for so long that many of the styles in different areas have little to do with each other. Hong Quan originated in the Shaanxi area, from there it spread to Henan, the Shaolin Temple, Hebei, Shandong, Hunan, Zhejiang, Jiangsu, Anhui, Sichuan, I could keep going but almost every province in all of China has a style called Hong Quan. Even Hong Quan styles within a province or in neighboring provinces are often totally different. The Hong Quan in Gansu is different from the Hong Quan right across the border in Shaanxi.
It might have something to do with Shaolin, it might not. There are a ton of Hong Quan styles and forms in Sichuan many of which have nothing to do with Shaolin or each other, but some do.
So without researching the background of that specific family style there isn’t really any way to tell, and there are literally thousands of obscure family styles in China.
[QUOTE=bawang;1191287]man, you cant emphasize the difference between the hong quan styles.
looking at a performance tells you so little. almost every generation the flow and rhythm of a form changes and the sequence is shuffled.
but if you look at the core concepts and techniques then they are indeed the same. specifically the five elements and whipping power.[/QUOTE]
Not just Hong Quan… To me every style of Northern Chinese Kung Fu looks almost identical. I think Shaanxi Hong Quan is actually the most representative style of Kung fu. I would challenge anyone to name a technique or principle from their style that does not appear in Shaanxi HongQuan.
At first we think all the styles are different, but when you look at any in detail it is identical. Everyone thinks Taiji is sooo different and special, but it is very very standard longfist. Baji, XingYi, TongBi, Fanzi, Shaolin, Wudang, Luohan etc. etc. They are all so so similar. Some over emphasize some element, but their overall technique is all the same.
And perhaps 400 years ago was a peak for form creation, but the techniques go back a lot further than that.
