It is very complicated to get into the history of forms. OK, I’ll do it very quickly. I’m not going to touch on the Chinese forms except to say that they have been instrumental in creating Okinawa-te. That name finally changed in Karate. Okinawan practiced forms to hide the hidden pressure point application of techniques. The standard blocks one practices today (rising block, in block, down block, etc.) were actually strikes along the meridians. What is now taught as hand retractions to simulate more force in the punch or block, were in the past taught is either a joint lock, set up meridian strike, and or mapping out on your body where to strike the apponent on his. There techniques were well hidden and considered deadly. The “one punch one kill” theory didn’t come about from the force of the punch or kick, it had to do with pressure point manipulations. (BTW, tai chi forms are the same way…originally designed to hide dim mak points.) When Gichin Funakoshi traveled to Japan in 1922 to teach Okinawan karate, he purposefully changed all the kata. He basically taught the Japanese strikes as blocks. He taught them stances which were pretty much useless and never explained the true meaning of Okinawan forms. Later those forms were passed onto the Koreans during Japans occupation. Actually, masters like the one who created Tang Soo Do actually admited later that they learned forms from Japanese books on kata. So the Korean versian of kata (Poomse, Hyung, etc.) were even more watered down than the japanese kata. If you attend 99% of the TKD schools (as good as they are competitively), the teachers will not be able to explain the forms any deeper than block/punch/step/kick. Actually, most masters will openly tell you that they fail to see the reason for practicing forms other than to make a sport look like an art. My master, though an accomplished fighter and who held a masters rank in Hapkido as well as TKD, was blown away when he began researching the hidden meaning of Okinawan kata and Tai Chi forms.
MA fanatic
In my humble opinion, here is what is missing in TKD.
- Grappling
- Effective knowledge of hold escapes
- Punching / Clinching / Ground Fighting range
- Knowledge of joint manipulation / Throws / Chokes
- Proper form interpretations (actual techniques in Poose or Hyungs which have some effective meaning).
- A strict ranking system (in most TKD schools one becomes a black belt in 2 years)
- TKD has to many federations, associations, and branches, most masters don’t know its history and each organization claims the others are terrible. I have met members from Universal TKD Federation making fun of World TKD Federation for how WTF guys spar, while they themselves beleive in NO CANTACT FULL CONTACT fighting (claiming that their techniques are too dangerous to even touch eachother with). We have ITF (International TKD Federation) guys saying that WTF sucks because they don’t allow punching to the face. WTF guys say that though ITF guys allow face punching, they are not allowed to draw blood, ITF guys don’t fight full contact and are pulled aside after each point scored. There are other overning bodies for TKD as well. Yet, all fail to see that with the exception of a few knowledgeable masters, most schools are Mcdojos marketing a watered down system to little kids and adults who don’t want to devote too much time training.
Personally, I was lucky with my TKD instructor. Most are not. I have seen 8 year olds with black belts running around and adult black belts who couldn’t defend themselves if their life dependent on it. The few hard core schools that exist do a great job. There are also schools which are honest about teaching an Olympic sport and openly state that they don’t focus on self defense. Those schools generally have very good fighters.
MA fanatic
I would be careful of people who teach TKD and Hapkido.
A LOT of times, this means that they teach TKD and some low-level HoSinSul they’ve picked up along the way. 5 joint locks, maybe a throw or two… Osote Gari, Seio Nage, etc.
Anyone who says they do both, ask to see their HKD certification. See who they trained with, etc.
People justify this by saying that Hapkido is just a generic term for Chin Na. Don’t buy into this.
Of course, if you are at a school that truly does both, you’ll learn quite a bit.
I skimmed this thread and figure I would add my few since. My first formal art (not the wrestling around with papa) was TKD. I learned at Osan AFB in Korea. For awhile it was the only art I knew the reason I started taking it was I was getting picked on quite abit. I fought quite a bit and the more I fought the better I got. The reason is because experience goes a long way. I have branched off and done other arts. Not because TKD was lacking but because I found several that fit me as well. I still used TKD in my fighting method and (blowing my own horn) have become a VERY proficeint fighter. The effectiveness of the art has to deal with the person more than technique.
I won’t go into much TKD history. If you don’t know that TKD was shotokan in disquise got find out in Cho’s on words. Also the fact the the first hyungs were the same as shotokan kata.
Asia,
I agree with you. Have to say that Cho’s TKD forms were even more watered down than the forms Funakoshi gave to the Japanese. Funakoshi later admitted to misinforming the Japanese about what the Kata he taught was really designed for because there was a history of tension between Okinawa and Japan. I can only imagine the version of forms Cho taught. Well, I don’t have to imagine, I studied them. I also believe that an art is only as good as it’s practioner.
Hapkido and TKD. Unfortunately there are many schools claiming to teach tkd and hapkido for self defense. Unfortunately very few of those masters have qualifications to teach hapkido (usually just teach 2 joint lock techniques for every type of grab, and maybe a couple of throws). Hapkido is a rather complete system (including weapons, ground attacks..though limited in ground fighting, numerous joint manipulations, stand up choking/strangulations, a multitude of kicks and punches, as well as weapons defenses. Many hapkido masters train the Korean millitary and police. Even in the US, hapkido is an art frequently taught to millitary personelle. Actually, Hapkido is in no way a low level version of Chi Na. I studied Chi Na and Wing Chun for 4 years. I studied Hapkido for 7. Trust me, Hapkido is very deep not only in fighting applications, but in meditation, KI development, pressure point and anatomy knowledge. I would say, hapkido is as deep and powerful as Chi Na, if not even more complete. Do, however ask the master of TKD to show Hapkido certification. The two arts are very different and the master would have to train in different schools. My instructor at the time spent 17 years studying Hapkido, while studying and competing in TKD. He had certifications from the Korean Kido association as a 6th dan in TKD, 2nd dan in Udo, and 5th in Hapkido. Always check credentials.
MA fanatic
I used to do ITF TaeKwondo years ago as a young teenager. That was my first and only formal (by that I mean having to join an organisation) training I’ve ever heard.
Currently, I’m training informally with a group of friends with diverse and varied martial art backgrounds. One has a black belt in judo, another a black belt in yoshinkan aikido, another boxes , another a 2nd dan black belt in WTF Taekwondo, and a few other well trained people.
I know the curriculum for both ITF and WTF Taekwondo (to 1st dan belt and beyond) quite well from reading lots of TaeKwondo books as well as from a friend. I knew **** from attending class. Unorganised, useless classes. Learnt more about TaeKwondo from my own than attending classes.
I mean, seriously, I don’t mean to put Taekwondo down, but training in this gives a false sense of security. I don’t want to type too much becasue of my slow typing speed, but I do need to get a few questions of my chest.
What’s with learning the forms/patterns, step sparring, stances, rigid punches, hard blocks and impractical (not all though) kicks?
I asked my friend about this and he says they help with balance etc. Couldn’t the time be better spent doing real stuff. I mean I’m guessing even if all the things I mentioned were completely missing from TKD Training, the practioners can still turn out to be good or even better fighters. Maybe it has something to do ‘theory of power’, but come on?
A few things IMO should be changed for TKD Training. Excuse me if I sound ignorant.
Take away the rigid stances. No real need for them. Learn a couple of relaxed, natural stances.
Teach good footwork.
Take away the rigid punches. Teach proper punches. Include palm strikes, backhand and elbows.
More to come later.
Good thread, thanks!
OmegaPoint wrote:
“During the Vietnam War my current sensei worked and trained alongside many ROK soldiers (S. Korean) that practiced a style of fighting that looked remarkably similar to the Shorin Ryu he was learning and teaching. He often comments that they were some of the best “karateka” that he has ever seen. That method of training is probably extinct, and you’d be real lucky to find someone that understands the original intent of TKD.”
I’ve heard the same thing about TKD from Vietnam vets. Also the kwan in Vietnam avoided much of the Korean nationalist BS that took over TKD, so you can find versions of TKD that still remain true to it’s origins. Also being in a warzone helped keep the edge. My schools lineage goes back to those kwan in Vietnam and looks more like shotokan during kata, but with light fast footwork(not the bouncy stuff) and hard quick strikes during sparring. Don’t know if it looks like Shorin (I doubt it does) but it sure doesn’t look like any style of TKD I’ve ever seen either.
Haveing read how poor TKD is on lots of posts I feel a need to tell you what I saw this sunday at a Sanshou contest.
A friend of mine who has been training in Tai Chi with my club for about a year and who previously trained in TKD was put against a Kung Fu guy with similar experience… The result was the Kung Fu guy on his back twice in about 15 seconds from round kicks to the head that he never saw coming then dumped on his back from a nice take down then kicked down again. At this point the fight was stoped under the 3 knock down rule. Almost every one who was watching the fight thought that it should have been stoped after the first blow as the kung fu guy just couldnt defend his self.
My point hear is that my friend is a very good TDK guy who used his TKD to beat a Kung Fu guy (hard to say how good he was as the only movement he made was to fall over 4 times) in a full contact arena. No art is worthless its all about how you train and what you train for.
“My point hear is that my friend is a very good TDK guy who used his TKD to beat a Kung Fu guy (hard to say how good he was as the only movement he made was to fall over 4 times) in a full contact arena. No art is worthless its all about how you train and what you train for.”
From your post on this guy its safe to say that he had other skills than TKD. So was it TKD skills that allowed him to win or was it a cross training knowledge that he gained.
people bad mouth TKD because it is a limited art. But like any art, if you have training in the other areas of fighting your skills will improve your fighting ability.
TKD will benifit your fighting skills, but dont limit yourself on knowledge. And like you pointed out, its how you train and what you train for that makes the difference.
MA Fanatic–
FINALLY–somebody else who believes that the OLYMPIC TKD rules will improve the level of TKD.
Just as you said–a boxer is a dangerous opponent… why are we discounting TKDer’s who are TRYING to knock each other out also?
my 2 centavos…
So I read that the Shotokan style was combined with an indigenous Korean foot-fighting art, as well as some northern chinese kicks. I remember from my days studying TKD that the most distinctive feature of the system was the training methods, all the straight legged stretch/exercise kicks, the wall kicks, etc. And TKD players favor a full pivot and chamber for their kicks. Is there actually anything that’s not included in Karate, even if it’s with a different emphasis? Also, besides the inside/outside crescent kicks, I don’t see too much relation between Korean and Chinese-style kicking, so I tend to think it passed through Karate and possible the indigenous foot art.
-FJ
There are lots of beautiful women in taekwondo 
Anyways I practise it, and love it. Not the selfdefence so much, but the flying kicks etc (which don’t have much to do with self defence or street fighting anyways). Taekwondo is a good sport, and it can be a good martial art. I train for the sport for now. I’m not trying to archieve a black belt, train my mind or be the ultimate warrior. I just want to do tricks 
That’s just my opinion, and that’s the reason why I train taekwondo.
Did that make any sense? Hmmm, I can’t see any point for this post. haha.
Dark Knight
“The result was the Kung Fu guy on his back twice in about 15 seconds from round kicks to the head that he never saw coming then dumped on his back from a nice take down then kicked down again”
Excluding the takedown, I would say it was the TKD skills (knockout kicks) that won the guy this match. The takedown came third in a series of 4 successful attacks, so the guy had already been knocked down twice by roundkicks to the head.
I went along to a TKD class once, and the instructor was very heavy on the joint locks.
How old is tkd?
end of thread…
Liokalt
My experience was just the Opposite.
When I started to train in Mantis , I started to drop people in my TKD class very quickly. They just couldn’t handle the punches from that close in.
How old is TKD? Relatively new. The term TKD was coined in the 50s. The Korean martial arts, however, go back further. Some can be traced to the Japanese occupation of Korea. Others go back centuries.
TKD and self defense: That would depend on the school you train in. Keep in mind, TKD is very political. There are several governing bodies. Giggest being WTF (world TKD federation) and ITF (International TKD Federation). WTF guys fight by Olympic rules (3 rounds, full contact, no punching to face, kicking to head full power, KO wins, kicks to body have to be delivered with trembling shock…sending your apponent back). ITF rules are basically based on a point system. Full power kicks and punches are forbidden. No rounds are fought, but light punching to the head are alloud. KO your apponent will get you disqualified for accessive contact. As for self defense, one just has to ask the master instructor what his background is. Most Korean instructors have had mixed training in Hapkido and/or Judo. Just make sure you don’t sign up for a very athletically oriented program where you’re only drilled tournament techniques, if your goal is self defense. Instructors vary in experience. I studied Hapkido and TKD for 7 years with a guy who stressed full contact sparring (Olympic WTF style, and bare knuckle similar to kyokushinkai karate style sparring with leg kicks permitted). I have seen other schools who teach literally 3 self defense techniques per belt rank, teach only WTF sparring, and handout black belts in 2 years. Because there are many TKD schools, many teach nonesense.
Funny TKD story. There is an organization Universal TKD Federation where individuals don’t spar with any contact at all. Sparring is done with 6 feet apart between apponents. Techniques are poor at best. Yet, many members believe that TKD techniques are just too dangerous to spar with. My friend and I were once confronted by one UTF member who insisted that we were puching wrong because we stood in a boxing stance and kept our chins low. “You can’t distribute ki the right way this way.” My friend challenged the guy to a light sparring match (nothing serious), the guy refused out of fear of hurting my friend (who has a fairly decent full contact record in Olympic TKD and kickboxing). The UTF guy proceeded to make comments about the lack of skill my friend had. Finally, my budy says, “Ok, lets spar and don’t worry about hurting me.” So this guy agrees. He looked frightened, and rightfully so. He got tapped (literally tapped…my wife kicks harder when we play around) in the stomach by a round kick and collapsed on the floor. He got up and said, “see how deadly TKD kicks are. That is why you shouldn’t spar with them.” LOL LOL LOL
MA fanatic
Good one MAF, I’ll keep a lookout for them. Kyokushinkai was influential on several kwan, Mas was Korean after all. Sadly you don’t see that kind of TKD much anymore.
Originally posted by fa_jing
[B]So I read that the Shotokan style was combined with an indigenous Korean foot-fighting art, as well as some northern chinese kicks. I remember from my days studying TKD that the most distinctive feature of the system was the training methods, all the straight legged stretch/exercise kicks, the wall kicks, etc. And TKD players favor a full pivot and chamber for their kicks. Is there actually anything that’s not included in Karate, even if it’s with a different emphasis? Also, besides the inside/outside crescent kicks, I don’t see too much relation between Korean and Chinese-style kicking, so I tend to think it passed through Karate and possible the indigenous foot art.
-FJ [/B]
Do you mean northern chinese styles or southern styles kicking because there is a gigantic difference! I think northern styles have similiar kicking to TKD.