Hey, I’m new to taekwon do and during my searches for information on it I’ve found that a lot of people have a pretty low opinion of it. What’s up?
I’ve heard the sport (WTF style) vs combat arguments, but with a lot of macho overtones. Hopefully the level-headed people here will give me some words of wisdom on the matter. The master I train with gives us a good deal of cross training in Hapkido, but, as an olympian, he’s very focused on the sparring and sport of TKD.
PS: I’m more interested in TKD as a sport, but the martial art and self defense aspect fascinates me…otherwise I wouldn’t be posting.
I started out training in Kung Fu. At the time I trained 6 days a week, 2 hours a day at least. Later when my school relocated, I decided to look into other martial arts and started training from a man who was 6th in Ji Do Kwan TKD (taught WTF style and was the coach for IL. State Team), 5th dan in Hapkido, 2nd Dan in Judo (his father was a coach at the Udo College in Soul), and had an impressive boxing record. I trained with that man for over 7 years. In his 12 years of teaching, he only gave out 6 black belts (all of whom, besides me who joined the school with some experienced have been with him for that long). After he relocated to NC, I started attending numerous seminars in search of another art. Found myself training in Muay Thai and shoot boxing for a few years. Now train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Here is the answer to your question. TKD Olympic sparring is not enough by any means to defend yourself on the street. You are only studying one range of fighting (kicking range). There are four ranges. You are also developing one attribute (kicks). There are four (strikes, throws, joint manipulation, and strangulation/choking). Enjoy the sport aspect of the sport, but when it comes to street self defense, once you miss with you kick, you’re done for. I have seen TKD guys beat Kung Fu guys and vice versa in competitions. On the street, neither has all the answers. I would say Kung Fu (assuming your instructor is legit) is better suited for that. If you want some complete fighting systems check out www.russianmartialart.com or look into shoot boxing, Jeet Kune Do, Combat Sambo. Most important look into open minded teachers.
There are some good TKD dojangs out there, but you have to really look to find 'em. Overall the style has become commercialized and sportive so it can appeal to children–which happen to be its main draw. Don’t believe me? Take a look at the Yellow Page ads for the TKD places near you. They have become little more than baby-sitters for a couple of hours while the parents go out and blow Juniors college tuition at the gambling boats.
It’s not a bad style, but as already mentioned only one aspect nowadays (the sportive kicking) is focused on when in reality there’s a whole gamut of techniques in traditional TKD.
Traditional TKD is very similar to traditional karate.
I have a close friend who has practiced olympic style for a long time (he’s a 2nd dan) and is now studying more hapkido.
One of the big differences in sport kicking vs “traditional” kicking is hip placement and knee placement.
For example…a sport roundhouse need to be wicked fast to score, so the tend to come up in front from the knee and turn over from the hip very late (making them really hard to beat, stop, or counter). A combat round house (traditional) tend to open the hip a bit earlier. This does slow down the kick by increasing the distance traveled, but it can increase the severity of the blow. It depend on the goal of the attack.
TKD is one of the most political martial arts there is. The bad thing, is that the martial side, was either lost, or turned into the sport side. The good thing is, its also an art that is regulated by strict governing bodies. So, if you want to know if your instructor is a nobody claiming to be a well knows master, you could check on him through either WTF, ITF or Korean Kido organization. Regarding self defense, I have yet to see a TKD fighter practice any realistic self defense. I have a 2nd dan in WTF (Olympic Style TKD) and a 1st dan in Hapkido (my instructor had a 6th dan in TKD, 5th in Hapkido, and 2nd in Judo, was also a 5 time Korean TKD national champion). Most TKD masters have some hapkido background. Over all, its more of a sport than combat art. Beside the Olympic style TKD (keep in mind that Olympic WTF style TKD though not designed for the street, produces some incredible athletes who train to kick with something called ‘trembling shock’), there are numerous other organizations. The second biggest is ITF. The rest I think are fly by not federations I wouldn’t come near.
KOY , I can’t count the similarities between us! I was also a Fencer looking for a non-weapons MA to go into. And I , too , went to TKD. I , also used fencing footwork to kick ass in TKD slap-fighting.
I can’t tell you how much TKD ISN’T based in reality, or tell you what a fake most TKD is until you try something else.
I ended up doing 7*Praying Mantis Kf privately with a master that lives in my area. It’s so much more practical and realistic.
If you have a Savate school in your area , I recomend you go to it. Savate is a French MA based , on Fencing! JKD also has a heavy Fencing influcene. Dump TKD (one fencer to another - do it - you won’t regret it) and get something different.
If you can come back here and list what’s available to you.
The TKD school I attend is WTF affiliated and very very sport oriented. Self defense is taught, but not heavily stressed as far as I’ve seen. Also taught there are aiki-jujutsu and tai chi, and I don’t know much about AJJ…something i’ll ask on the main kung fu forum.
koy, if you want to actually learn to defend yourself go with the JKD school. Although I prefer traditional Jun Fan/JKD, it will give you some decent fighting skills in a short amount of time.
Tae kwon do, AS IT IS TAUGHT IN MANY PLACES, has problems, but let us not generalize every school by saying things that we don’t know are true.
Tae kwon do as a traditional martial art. The similarities to traditional TKD and shotokan are so great that when the first TKD schools were around they were called Korean Karate schools. Forgetting the sport side, which is NOT taught in every TKD school, TKD has much to offer in the way of self defense including integration of basic hap ki do. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not putting down the Olympic style sparring, but you must know that that is heavily focused on the sport side of martial arts.
Koy : I’d probably go for the JKD school , even if it is very american-y. It’s still better than s[ort TKD, whose stances will eventually skrew up your Fencing. . . (like we need something else that will hurt our knees)
First of all, who said tae kwon do must incorporate other arts to offer something? If you take pure tae kwon do you will be practicing a striking art which includes holds and take downs.
TKD focuses very heavily on striking, in being so it is incomplete. Because of this, the Korean art of hap ki do is integrated with it much the same way several styles of kung fu are taught together making for more balanced training. In many schools grappling is practiced as well. There is also weapon training in many TKD schools. So, if you take TKD, from a good school mind you, you will find that it has much to offer from striking to grappling to joint locks and take downs and weapons training. Sorry if I was unclear before.
Tae Kwon Do b4 selling out = Jujitsu b4 Modern Judo
I have had the chance to train in the US and Asia with many karateka and other “marticians”. I met an awesome TKD cat in the Philippines in the early to mid-80s who was very, very good in sport and self protection. He did know how to wrestle and lifted weights, but his TKD looked a lot like good karate (“oxymoron” or at least a rarity). With the exception of that one guy though I can’t say that I’ve been overly impressed by what TKD has produced (recently, at least).
During the Vietnam War my current sensei worked and trained alongside many ROK soldiers (S. Korean) that practiced a style of fighting that looked remarkably similar to the Shorin Ryu he was learning and teaching. He often comments that they were some of the best “karateka” that he has ever seen. That method of training is probably extinct, and you’d be real lucky to find someone that understands the original intent of TKD.
All that aside you have to remember that TKD was the result of the founders’ training in Japanese Shotokan during the 2nd WW, and many of the techniques and forms were identical to what he had learned as a Japanese soldier. Nowadays it is a sportified version of school-boy karate. I don’t know what that says exactly, but knowing TKD is better than knowing nothing at all.
I respect your opinion, but I still don’t believe you (anyone) should judge the entire art, as it is taught today, by generalizing based on some bad schools. I completely agree that there are too many sell out schools that “teach” only for the money. However, there are still good schools and good instructors just like there are good kung fu schools and instructors.
You might not be overly impressed by what TKD you have seen, but I assure you there are enough TKD masters and their students who I believe would surprise you. You say that the training your sensei saw is probably extinct and that one would be lucky to find someone who understands the original intent of TKD. This is what I meant when I said you can’t judge an entire art when you don’t really know enough about it. There are good instructors and there are definitely good TKD schools. Finally you say that TKD is just sportified. This is one statement I know is not true (not completely anyway). Read my first post in this topic, but here I will talk more about it. There is Olympic style tae kwon do, which is very sportified. An example would be the typical WTF school. That is fine if you like sports, but don’t assume that is the extent of all the TKD schools. Many many TKD schools are not sportified. Take mine for example. When we spar, we do not keep a score or see who wins. We just spar and learn from our instructors how to use TKD in sparring for the same reason one would spar in any martial art. There are many schools like this, and that I know is a fact due to my own experiences.
The trouble with TKD, is that its a very political art. Actually, looking back at it’s origins, it was founded for political reasons. The TKD forms were originally low level versions of Japanese Karate forms. TKD masters generally don’t know the meaning of them. As for self defense, that all depends on the teacher you get. I studied TKD for 7 years. My instructor was a 5 time Korean national TKD champion (full contact rules) wiht a rank of 6th degree. He also held a 5 degree black belt in Hapkido, was a champion of Soul Korea in boxing, and held a second degree black belt in Judo (his father was actually a Judo / Udo coach at the Korean Udo College). In his 12 years of teaching, the guy only passed on 6 black belts. All of them, except myself, had been with him for all 12 years (I was an exception becuase I had several years of Kung Fu prior to joining his school). So not all TKD schools are bad, and some TKD masters can certainly walk the walk. Also, to put down Olympic style fighting because it only teaches kicks is wrong. It’s a sport. Just like boxers only punch. But, here’s a clincher. Because boxers only punch, their punching skills overcompensate for someone who has a wealth of martial arts knowledge. WTF TKD guys only kick, but they do it well, and they kick with more power than any Kung Fu, or Karate guy (only other guys I have seen kick harder are Muay Thai boxers). I have seen Kung Fu guys lose to TKD guys simply because they underestimated the speed and power of TKD kicks. Olympic TKD guys fight full contact, and fight for three rounds. They don’t score unless their kick displaces you (called trembling shock). So when they kick, they have authority behind the kick. They also can hit you from any angle, moving in any direction and even hit yo with a spin kick to the jaw (my favorite move) from an open clinch. If you fight a well trained Olympic TKd guy, keep your hands up, or he’ll knock you out.
MA fanatic
“The TKD forms were originally low level versions of Japanese Karate forms.”
By the same token, Japanese karate forms were a “one off” of Okinawan forms… introduced to the Japanese with debatable amounts of true technical candor.
But then the Okinawan styles were derived originally from Chinese arts.
This is my understanding.
Judging TKD’s art, by bad TKD schools, is like judging Rolex watches by something you by from Vito on the street corner. It has absolutely NO RELATIONSHIP to the real thing. Rolex watches are not bad because Vito sells cheap bootleg copies.
I think the biggest problem with TKD today is that there seems to be so many maggot schools feeding off of that art. This is further confused by being a very popular sport. This makes it most challenging for a self defense oriented person to find the right place in TKD.
CLS, I agree with you about the forms. Japanese don’t have that same depth of understanding kata as the okinawans. And, I’m sure Okinawans missed some interpretations when studying the Chinese forms. This was not my point. Korean TKD masters have received forms which were watered down three times over. As for self defense, there are too many McDojos. Students are receiving black belts in 2 years. Some even in less amount of time. Self defense is not taught. The good competitive schools often mislead consumers stating that they teach self defense. They don’t. Teaching a middle age man how to throw jump spin kicks is not self defense. Its stealing money.
MA fanatic
