For info on what hitler was into occult wise, read HELLBOY!!!
Thanks. I threw that name out there because it was the only guy I could think of who didn’t seem to match with the others.
For info on what hitler was into occult wise, look up the Thule society and info on the Vril. keep an open mind.
BTDT. I also like the saying, “Don’t keep your mind so open your brain falls out.”
I’ve known lots of nice fun loving occultist. Mostly they were just completely ignorant of the history of what they were doing or you just had to get into a slightly deeper conversation about the inner meaning behind their practices. My mind is not likely to change while I am here in China because that whole tradition doesn’t seem to exist around here so there’s not much chance of meeting enough counterexamples to convince me of anything.
I only came to these conclusions because I was headed that way myself untill I got deep enough in to decide that it was just the most beautful angel all over again. It never goes anywhere good.
Hellboy?
For info on swastikas and Shaolin, read our shaolin forum thread.
[SIZE=“1”]D.S: Do NOT start the great comic wars again, especially not now. 
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I think we can both agree on HELLBOY’s Coolitude . . .
Just remember it wasn’t just the Crowleys. There were also people like Yeats and I’ve never heard him being involved with nazi type stuff though he probably would have been quite fond of the IRA.
Yeah Crowley’s organisation was actually quite small compared to the one that he belonged to temporarily - the Golden Dawn, which included Yeats along with a host of other creative people.
dammmit i still want an apology for someone calling me a racist biggot. 
i know old adolf was into the occult, but he considered Wagner his greatest mentor. Wagner’s plays were heavily steeped in Teutonic mythos - what most would probably recognize as the viking/norse mythology. So, while I agree that he was into the occult, that he knew of the swastika as a symbol used in almost every culture world wide, and that he was passionate about finding (creating) his aryan “roots”; i really wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the obvious Germanic influence in using the symbol.
The “Swastika”
First, greetings All,
Thanks to the site for the forum.
Second, what is being classed as the “Swatika” is known to other cultures. Personally, I believe its origins lie in Africa and its African variant centers around the concept of the so-called male/female, complimentary “opposites” concept so prevalent in African metaphysical thought.
My two cents.
Africa is pretty big. which African culture are you refering to?
Most of the people I named can not be considered “The Crowleys” or even “Crowley’s organization”. You guys just picked up on the best known name. Golden Dawn goes back to the same place I was talking about. Natzi party was fimly rooted in the Golden Dawn. The only name mentioned so far that I really can’t comment on is Joyce. Haven’t looked into him so I confess ignorance up front.
It’s all evil evil stuff and ultimately Satanic in the most authentic way. Not in the hollywood horror movie way but in the way that real Satanism works. The phrase everyone knows best, Crowley’s summary, “Do what thy wilt…” is a real succint summary of Satan’s sin. Without this rearangement of the higerarchy, placing “man” at the top and proclaiming that Man is the ultimate determinant of his destiny, then there is no room for the birth of Natzi Germany. I can’t even say “the religious structure that they created” because the religious structure predated the Natzis. If it wasn’t for Von List taking in a young Hitler as his protoge it’s not possible IMO for him to have gone on the the “heights” that he did.
It amazes me that “Astara” has managed to so thouroughly erase the memory of the name as basically the anti-semitic cult that it was in the 30’s.
No Blavatski, no “Aryan Race”.
The evidence of Hitler’s obsession with the Wagner’s adaptation of the grail myth comes much later.
The peace symbol comes from turning Natzi grave markers upside down. The natzi’s made it a policy to erase all traces of the Christian god from the german culture so they needed to get rid of all those pesky crosses marking graves. The chose as a replacement the “man” symbol. The rune representing “Man” because they were replacing god with man. That’s the one connecting thread between most all of those turn of the century occultists. The age of reason was in full swing and people were obsessed with mechanism and theology was reflecting that. There seemed to be this wild idea that we had figured everything out or would soon and that included religious beliefs.
The idea of sumoning angles or working magic at all is explicitly forbidden by all 3 Judeo-Christian religions. The reasoning is because it is implicitly evil. You try to place yourself “higher” up when the essence of the Judeo-Christian tradition is the opposite. It’s humility, not hubris.
I don’t believe it originated with any one culture. There is enough evidence around teh world to tell us their is a common stream of thought in virtually all cultures that is independent of each other. For example, the swastika and all its forms can be representitive of any concept you wish to attach to it. It shows a wheel that is continuous, could be the milky wa galaxy, could be a lot of things.
Other things that show that cultures indepently seem to be along the same line of thinking is pyramids. The human condition and how we percieve things is not much different from culture to culture. How we express our perception comes out in our culture, but the fact we are all human is underlying everything.
I am also not one of the people who is comfortable with the whole origin theory. I think life is like a mold and will simultaneously pop up in physical form wherevere the conditions are met in order for that to happen.
so, the out of africa theory such as put forth by the Leakys and others isn’t exactly what I would think of as ‘actual’. It’s possible, but then, I tend to think about the freshwater theory that has at its base the idea that humans came into being wherever fresh water was that could support them.
Ultimately, it is irrelevant to the here and now and holds no tangible context and will remain a trivial thing. I don’t believe science and anthropology will ever move beyond the terminological thinking that they have this tendency to ahere to. there msu be an origin, there must be a first etc etc. Just a bunch of cartesian dualism really isn’t it?
The actual truth is that we have not one iota of a clue as to our origins, why we are alive, what is the universe and so on. All the big questions remain unanswered and will be so as long as we stick to our human condition and examine it with our dull and unknowing minds such as they are. 
It’s all evil evil stuff and ultimately Satanic in the most authentic way. Not in the hollywood horror movie way but in the way that real Satanism works. The phrase everyone knows best, Crowley’s summary, “Do what thy wilt…” is a real succint summary of Satan’s sin. Without this rearangement of the higerarchy, placing “man” at the top and proclaiming that Man is the ultimate determinant of his destiny, then there is no room for the birth of Natzi Germany. I can’t even say “the religious structure that they created” because the religious structure predated the Natzis. If it wasn’t for Von List taking in a young Hitler as his protoge it’s not possible IMO for him to have gone on the the “heights” that he did.
This entire comment is presupposing a Christian mythos. There are plenty of religions based in mysticism that qould not be capable of the atrocities Hitler committed. Neo-Paganism (one of the fastest growing religions in the US) is based on that partial, and out of context, quote by Crowley. The whole quote actually is “An’ it harm none, do what thou wilt.” Leave out that first part, and sure it sounds like a selfish egocentric policy.
Also Satanism, as the term is used in popular culture, is a misnomer. Christians apply the term Satanism to ANY religion, belief, or act they disagree with. Satanism is an actual religion or belief structure, organized by Anton LeFay (sp?). To group all types of mysticism in with this is a disservice to other cultures and beliefs. In fact Christianity and Judiasm are both steeped in Mystical heritage. Judiasms biggest example is the Qabbalah. And Christianity has the power of prayer, use of incense in ritual, and the original placement of its churches.
‘do no harm and do as you will’ is found frequently in the thelema texts (google em if you like) and in hermeticism in general.
a lot of the mystical orders spring from hermeticism or the gnostic p.o.v or both or a combination of these.
Many pre-Christian religions trace their roots through hermeticism and gnosticism. In fact, these types of belief structures are the first “organized religions”, not as in having temples, as they worshipped outdoors, but in that many people shared a common belief structure. It wasthe dawn of Christianity that had forced many religions underground. The term Pagan was used to describe any of the non-mainstream religions (anything other than Christianity, Judiasm, or Islam). And in fact Christianity adopted many of the old religions practices in order to make conversion to the “true” religion easier. The Christmas tree is an example of this.
And my previous comment about the placement of churches being mystical referred to the way that the Christians would build their temples on the land previously used for worshipping by the heathens.
In fact the Christians own Golden Rule is in fact a *******ization of the An’ it harm non, do what thou wilt expression.
no. They call other religions pagan. However, admittedly I do know a lot of devout christians who associate certain music - marilyn manson, danzig, etc. with satanism and also associate things like pokemon with demonic practice, or satanism.
And Christianity has the power of prayer, use of incense in ritual, and the original placement of its churches.
that’s not mystical, per se. the “power” of prayer comes from God - the center of christianity.
no. They call other religions pagan. However, admittedly I do know a lot of devout christians who associate certain music - marilyn manson, danzig, etc. with satanism and also associate things like pokemon with demonic practice, or satanism.
I was referring to certain practices that are performed in Pagan rituals, that are referred to as satanism, in much the same way you pointed out secular things are referred to as such.
that’s not mystical, per se. the “power” of prayer comes from God - the center of christianity.
It has roots in mysticism. It was modeled from chanting of the Druids in Europe, as well as other religions. Spoken prayer has mystical roots. Granted, some Christians use silent prayer, which in and of itself does not have mystical origins. Infact, the use of incense in church is supposed to carry the spoken prayers to heaven.
the incencse thing is new to me… I’ve never been in a christian church that burns incense - is that one of the other judeo-christian religions?
I believe it is most popular in Roman Catholic sects. You can see an altar boy carrying a swinging incense pot whenever the pope (at least the last one) gives mass. Usually at high ranking Bishops and Cardinals masses as well. They are less common in everyday (or every week) ceremonies.
I wish someone other than Davie Jameson would show a little real education on the topic. So far he’s the only person so give me anything to think about or google.
Everything I commented on IS part of the Christian mythos. The European magical christan is disctinctly Christian. Even the Germanic recreations. ALL those neo-pagan turn of the century occultists were as christian as you could get. KABALLA is a hebrew word. The Natzi neo-pagan faith was so methodically anti-Chritian/Jewish it could not possibly have sprouted up outside of the Christian mythos. The Wagner Opera…whatsit? Parsival, the core myth of the entire Natzi parti: Grail Myth, as in “the holy Grail of Christ”.
Dig deeper.
There are plenty of religions based in mysticism that qould not be capable of the atrocities Hitler committed.
I agree. Take Judaism for example, especially the Hassidic movement. You might want to either rephrase that or figure out what I am actually saying. Maybe ask Jamie Davidson since he clearly understands my point even though he doesn’t entirely agree with it.
Neo-Paganism (one of the fastest growing religions in the US)
I am well aware of that and if was not for the depth of my involvement in that movement I wouldn never have found out what horrible roots this movement has.
is based on that partial, and out of context, quote by Crowley. The whole quote actually is “An’ it harm none, do what thou wilt.” Leave out that first part, and sure it sounds like a selfish egocentric policy.
Leave it in and it’s even worse. It harms MANY. It is incredible hubris to think that it harms none because a little freak like Crowley said so.
Also Satanism, as the term is used in popular culture, is a misnomer. Christians apply the term Satanism to ANY religion, belief, or act they disagree with. Satanism is an actual religion or belief structure, organized by Anton LeFay (sp?). To group all types of mysticism in with this is a disservice to other cultures and beliefs.
You are wrong on so many level I don’t know where to start. I think the main thing is that you have thrown the term mysticism and tried to pretend that it has something to do with Satanism. What the term is used for in the popular culture is 100% irrelevant to my post. I was apparently not explicit enough when I said, "not the hollywood version but real satanism. You are also showing your further lack of education on the subject to try and narrow the term down to one particular version as if these practices started with Anton Lefay. If I was in the states and had access to my personal library I could point you in the direction of Satanic movements 1000+ years ago. LOTS of them. No one has grouped “all types of mysticism in with this” except in your own imagination. This riff of yours on mysticism is irrelevant to the topic. It’s a red herring and a distraction.
In fact the Christians own Golden Rule is in fact a *******ization of the An’ it harm non, do what thou wilt expression.
Wrong wrong wrong. I am not certain where the first reference to the golden rule is but you can find it many centuries before that piece of garbage. It is a paraphrase of Rabbi Akiba’s summary of the torah many centuries ago. I expect there is a reference in the gospels since it’s usually thought of as Christian doctrine but:
http://www.ou.org/NCSY/projects/darcheidaat/5761/spr61/Chesed%20is%20Golden.htm
An often-recalled mishna is that of the potential convert coming before Hillel, the sage. The man rudely challenged Hillel to explain the whole Torah while he stood on one foot. Hillel complied, raising his foot as he said: “Don’t do to your friend what you would not like to have done to you.” He then returned to standing on both feet and continued: “The rest is explanation, now go and learn.”
Instructions for the preparation of incense are in the Hebrew testament. Parts of it are repeated as part of the morning prayer. Local traditions change and some churches use incense more than others. The eastern churches like the Greek and Russian orthodox tend to have really smokey churches.
But I don’t and haven’t used the term in thay way at all. None of that is really relevant to the traditions I have attacked as satanic.