I’ve heard of many subforms in Hung Ga (Plum Flower Style, Flower Style, Lau Family, Butterfly Palm, etc.)
It seems however that all Hung Ga lineages have different subforms. Which subforms are practised in which lineage?
Plum flower style and flower style are not usually practiced by Hung Gar people, but perhaps you mean plum flower form (mui fa kuen)?
Most of Lam Sai Wing’s students will have Mui Fa Kuen, Lau Gar Kuen, Lau Gar Pang (stick), Wu Deep Jeung (butterfly palm), and Sup Ying Kuen (10 forms/5 animals, 5 elements form). Most do not have Ng Ying Kuen (5 forms form).
I don’t know about the other non-LSW lineages though.
Paul, thanks
Indeed I meant Mui Fa Kuen.
However I understand that are already differences between the lineages under Lam Sai Wing.
So I really would like to know which froms are trained in Chan Hon Chung and successors, Chiu Kao and successors, Lum Jo and successors, Ho Lap Tin, Frank Yee, etc.
So more a comparison of the current Hungga.
Some people maintain that the minor forms were added to aid teaching to the masses, just as Kushanku was broken down into pinan katas in karate. I use minor forms for this reason as well as to focus on specific excercises, and development of certain attributes, such as footwork, faht geng, etc. The Moi Fa Sup Fu Kuen, for example, focuses on body integration,threading bridge,footwork,long bridges, and winding bridges, and also utilizes the drilling fist, and trapping techniques. These techniques are found within the major forms, but are extracted and focused on in more detail here.
Well, speaking from experience, Chan Hon Chung’s students train Mui Fa Kuen, Lau Gar Kuen, Wu Deep Jeung, and Sup Ying Kuen, in addition to the 3 core forms.
Has anyone on here ever heard of a form called “Chai Jong”?
Ho Lap Tin
Under Ho Lap Tin Branch, we have two additional sets
Gow Ge Lin Wan Kuen (9 sons coutinuos fist) and
Lao Sing Kuen (Shooting Star Fist/Meteor Fist).
Peace
Je Lei Sifu 
The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger
Chiu Kao lineage
In Chiu Kao lineage exactly the same subforms are trained as in Chan Hon CHung’s.
Does Lam Jo lineage also has the same forms?
I heard they only did Lau Gar Kuen? Is this correct?
Oh by the way. Check out www.hungga.net to compare the Fu Hok of Lam Jo and of Chiu Chi Ling. Chi Chi Ling’s movie has just been added.
I think you’ll find that the only student of Lam Sai Wing’s that trains Ng Ying Kuen is Chiu Kao. None of the others, Chan Hon Chung, Wong Lee, Lau Jam, Lam Jo, etc., train it as far as I know
Ng Ying Kuen is indeed often practised in Chiu Kao lineages.
However I believe Tang Fung lineage also has Ng Ying Kuen, but NO Sap Ying Kuen. (At least this is what I read on the website of Yee’s Hungga).
Can anyone (Je Lei Sifu?) react on this?
As for the lineages under Lam Sai Wing. Here it seems that only Chiu Kao taught Ng Ying Kuen. However Ng Ying Kuen is NOT a real form. It’s just a half Sap Ying Kuen or sometimes three animals of Sap Ying Kuen (Dragon - snake - panter) and then the Fu Hok end (tiger - crane - lohan).
The foreign students of Chiu Kao’s sons often were for a short period in Hong Kong. This was not enough to learn the complete Sap Ying. Therefore they learned a part and the end “was just the same as Fu Hok”.
I believe some later some other teachers did the same. E.g. Chan Hon Chung learned the Ng Ying Kuen (or better said: the Sap Ying Kuen in parts) to a few foreign students later.
The big difference is that in Chiu Kao lineage Ng Ying Kuen is seen as a main form next to Sap Ying Kuen. Some students now however realise Ng Ying Kuen was only thaught as a bridge, and leave it out of their curriculum. So Ng Ying might dissappear again within a few generations.
Under Yee’s Hung Ga, Ng Ying Kuen is a major form. Sup Ying Kuen is a minor (or subform as called here).
Tiet Que
Ng Ying Kuen
In Tang Fong branch, Ng Ying is one of the major forms as Tiet_Que has stated. This form was not created by the Chui’s. Tang Fong had learned Ng Ying from Wong Fei Hung, and not Sup Ying.
Patrick Chui, you are correct in stating that the ending is the same as Fu Hok, from the Crane section, until the end.
Peace
Je Lei Sifu
The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger
Sup ying and Tang Fong
Just trying to understand the last two posts.
How is Sup Ying a subform while Ng Ying is not? Are you just saying that Ng Ying is the major form and though Sup Ying extends Ng Ying, it was additions after Wong Fei Hong?
Or is your Sup Ying entirely different/shorter then Ng ying? I don’t know that the Chiu’s claim to have “invented” Ng Ying but they defeinitely teach both where Sup Ying is an extension of Ng ying.
The Chiu’s just shortened Sap Ying to learn it to thier foreign student, so personally I would not call it "invent"or “create”. Probably the Chiu family knew Ng Ying KYun was done by Wong Fei Hung and perhaps even had contact with people of Tang Fong’s lineage. So hten you could say he kind of "re-included"the form . (However I know many argumetn can be given that this is not the case. It’s just a matter of how you see the form -)
I once heard the story Ng Ying Kyun was created by Wong Fei Hung and Sap Ying Kyun was later “created” by Lam Sai Wing. It’s said that he added the five elements after the Luk Sin accident.
If this is true I wonder how come Tang Fong linage also practises Sap Ying Kuen? Does it look the same as in Lam Sai Wing lineage?
Secondly I also wonder why it 's just a subform then? Thsi might indicate that Wong Fei Hung indeed did not have this form in his curriculum, and Tang Fong learned it from Lam Sai Wing. (as sometimes is said that Tang Fung later refreshed his contact with LSW and learned some “new forms”.
Does anyone know if all this is true or just a legend?
To make it clear.
Under Yee’s Hung Ga, Ng Ying is a major form from the Tang Fong lineage. Sup Ying Kuen was not from the Tang Fong however added as a minor form under Yee’s by a senior student who had studied it prior under the Lam Sai Wing’s lineage.
Sorry if this caused any confusion..
Tiet Que
Tang Fong and Sup Ying
Once again, I would like to reiterate, that sup ying is not a form within Tang Fong’s curriculum. It may have been added into the system by some of Tang Fong’s Students, but never taught by Tang Fong. I come from Ho Lap Tin’s Branch, and my sigung was with Tang Fong longer than his other students. Ho Lap Tin learned under Tang Fong while in Gwongdong at the Yi Yong Tong. Ho Lap Tin also completed the system before Tang Fong started to teach in Hong Kong. But once in Hong Kong, he assisted Tang Fong with the training his younger classmates. We perform all the sets taught by Tang Fong and sup ying is not one of them.
Peace
Je Lei Sifu
The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger
Tang Fong Forms
Je Lei Sifu is corrected, sup ying is not a form of the Tang Fong curriculum. At Yee’s Hung Ga there are some of us who are familiar with the minor forms of the Lam’s lineage, su ying being one of them. This is from one of our old senior Robert Chu who had studied the Lam lineage prior. As we all know Robert is a very well repected WC practioner and very open in exchanging and sharing his knowledges. It is during his time with Yee’s Hung Ga that he taught the Lam’s minor forms to those who were interested. My Sifu Frank Yee is also a very open minded person , he never discourage any of us from learning.
Today all those minor forms that were taught by Robert are optional forms. They are not part of the Yee’s curriculum, They are available for students to learn but not mandatory. As a matter of fact , not all branches of yee’s Hung Ga teaches these forms. We have plenty to work on already with the four hand forms that we have.
The four hand forms are gung gee fut fu, fu hok,
ng ying and the iron wire.
The reason for this response is just to be sure from a historic stand point which lineage has which forms. If you look at it, there are really three core forms in Hung Ga, Gung gee fut fu, Fu Hok and the iron wire. The subforms were created by the elders to help students progress. Why are we seperating the Lam and Tang lineage ?
Aren’t we all from Wong Fai hung?
I really do not see such a big difference between the two lineages.
A more interesting topic should be , where are the other WFH lineages beside Tang and Lam?
We all know WFH had many disciples during his life time. Did any of them teach ?
I talk enough.
peace
DF
family
df, your are 100% correct in your statement.
we all come from wong fei hung, this is the key to our art, and we should all cherish this , and through this learn and respect each other irrespective of what lineage we come from.
for myself i am from chiu kau lineage and chan hon chung lineage.
the interesting part of my training (started in 1973), is that the four forms i was taught from the chiu kau lineage is gung gee fook fu, fu hok, sup ying and tit sien.
it was not till much later that i was shown ng ying, and have always thought of this as a sub form.
this being the case, and how the players of the tang fung lineage have ng ying as a pillar form, can i ask if the ng ying that tang fung lineage play is different in ways to that of the chiu kau lineage players.
unfortunatly where i live, (down under) we don’t have any tang fung players here, so i have not seen ng ying played by this lineage, i would be greatly interested in any tang fung players answers.
thnk in advance
choi gin
ng ying
Hi bean curd,
I do not really know what the Lam’s lineage Ng Ying looks like, so I can not really say what and where the differences are.
I have seen a ng ying kuen in the past that is much shorter than the one we do. I do not know is that a Lam’s lineage form or not.
As far as why the ng ying is important, there are many reasons depending on how you want to look at things. The most obvious being the techniques and how each of the animals move. Since we are all different, each student can match his or her own body type , personality etc with the animal that best fit him or her.
Another reason, as the student progress, we can teach how the five elements corresponds to each of the five animals. This is done to further understand the internal, intend , generation of power etc.
I know I only just provide a very general answer to your question, but I think you know what I mean.
Ultimately, we are human and not a tiger or dragon,etc. The five animals ,five elements, twelve bridges theories are just tools for us to teach and help students understand. The theories are there to help us paint a mental picture so we can do the technique with the type of power, intend as it was designed. I think thats why we have so many styles of martial art. Just different ways of expressing body movement in combat. At the end of the day, it is all the same thing.
peace
DF
df,
thanks for the reply, know what you are eluding too.
peace also
one family
First let me say that I am a big supporter of the one family concept. The more I see different Hung Gar schools the more I see the similarities. The differences are really more interpretations of the same concept and seeing the differences helps me have a larger understanding of those concepts.
Second, there is at least two branches of WFH that I know of that doesn’t go through LSW or TF. They are his last wife and Penang Leng Nann Hung Cheun of Malaysia. The malaysian lineage actually comes from WFH’s first set of students.
(before LSW and TF)
Finally, the Ng Ying from the Chiu line is the same as Sup Ying from Lam Jo line (since some of the TF people know that one) except it stops after the crane portion with the ending from Fu Hok. Anyone know both the TF Ng Ying and the Lam Sup Ying that can say if this is true of the TF Ng Ying?
If not, then the Ng Ying is a very different set.
I’ve never seen TF Ng Ying and that’s why I ask. Let’s not get into better or worse. If you look at everyone’s sets, you can learn something from them.