Stuff That Most People Don't Do

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1232170]wing chun doesn’t train these things because as a style, wing chun isn’t about that.
[…][/QUOTE]

I guess if the OP contextualized his point in terms of asking/stating ‘stuff that most people don’t do in their training, more generally’ then this criticism falls to the wayside somewhat?

I must admit, David, that some times it is more the case of people not having been taught or exposed to aspects of wing chun than them adding stuff to it.

Although that is just my perspective, I do feel there is some consensus that wing chun, particularly with regards to the details, evidences a complexity that is not as simple and easy to learn as you suggest.

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[QUOTE=hulkout;1232281]I just don’t understand the mentality here. To say that it’s a simple system. Yes, that’s true. But that doesn’t mean that’s all there is to do. Conditioning exercises and additional training can be viewed as being separate from the system. I’m not talking about adding spinning scorpion kicks or flying elbow drops. Qigong and meditation are useful no matter what you do. I know some powerlifters who practice Qigong and meditation. It helps you in everything. The guy who said that adding things to it takes away from the simplicity is missing the point. It’s not about adding to the system. It’s about doing exercises and meditation to make it better. And if you do go outside the box, so what? As long as you understand the principles, you can make it your own and make it work for you. It’s also not about saying that my lineage is better than yours because we do these things or whatever. It’s just an exchange of ideas. That’s all. Trying to share ideas and maybe learn from one another. Attitudes like this are the very reason the Wing Chun community is the laughing stock of the martial arts world.

I have a friend who practices Muay Thai. He respects Wing Chun and the fact that I do it. But in his gym, the guys have a joke. How many Wing Chun guys does it take to screw in a lightbulb? The answer is five. One guy to do it and four guys to tell him he’s doing it wrong. It’s common knowledge that there’s so much idiotic bickering among us. Honestly I just don’t get it. More and more, I’m starting to think that posting on this forum or even talking to other practitioners form different lineages is useless. There are some very good people, but there’s always this underlying attitude of “Wing Chun is this. Not that. How dare you change or add to it in any way!”[/QUOTE]

If you want to do something outside and I emphasize the word outside of your wing chun that is your personal choice. Do meditation or qigong work or pilates or whatever you like. That’s fine but why suggest that it should be made a part of wing chun. If you went on a boxing forum and said you wanted to add transendental meditation to the boxing curriculum or practice you might get a few responses similar to what you’ve gotten here. They might point out to you that such practices really don’t help your boxing or have anything to do with boxing and that isn’t what boxing is really about. Now if you wanted to talk about some new exercise or diet that could help with their boxing they would listen and consider it.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1232257]I think this type of attitude is why we are in the mess we are today and possibly why most people don’t share what they have been taught, because most people don’t do or see Wing Chun like they do. We all have this ‘unique’ syndrome lol!

Begs the question, do you train the system or the style? There are many styles that advocate additional training and have developed over the years through direct experimentation (especially in the West) and there is the System which has been open to interpretation for far too long IMHO and possibly never been taught in it’s entirety either! From the system comes personal style, it does not work the other way round! And so I search for people interested in exactly what makes our system :wink: and how each stylist has contributed possible better ways to train new generations. Never close your mind to all possibilities.

Wing Chun hasn’t actually been ‘what it is’ for a very long time but that all depends on your own learning experience. And even if it is ‘what it is’ what is that exactly? Nobody can tell anyone, we can only share what we know and it is plain obvious we all know and explain things in different ways lol![/QUOTE]

Actually, it is exactly BECAUSE of people mixing whatever they want in and calling it WC that we have he mess that we have today.

We have the easy maxims of centerline, center of gravity, 50/50 weight, etc to go by. While there are areas of argument in application, the structure itself behind the application should be very easy to test. (Unit testing, yep, I’m an engineer.)

Maybe if we could all get on that same structural page first…

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[QUOTE=Eric_H;1232368]Actually, it is exactly BECAUSE of people mixing whatever they want in and calling it WC that we have he mess that we have today.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this… but again I reiterate that THIS trend is caused by people’s interpretation of concepts and MMA type mindsets causing a stylized approach rather than a systematic approach to teaching. Too much freedom too early on is no good for any Martial Art IMHO

[QUOTE=Eric_H;1232368]We have the easy maxims of centerline, center of gravity, 50/50 weight, etc to go by. While there are areas of argument in application, the structure itself behind the application should be very easy to test. (Unit testing, yep, I’m an engineer.)

Maybe if we could all get on that same structural page first…[/QUOTE]

Do you mean, maybe if we were all on YOUR structural page?

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Do you mean, maybe if we were all on YOUR structural page?

And then follow YOUR direction?

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[QUOTE=tc101;1232335]If you want to do something outside and I emphasize the word outside of your wing chun that is your personal choice. Do meditation or qigong work or pilates or whatever you like. That’s fine but why suggest that it should be made a part of wing chun. If you went on a boxing forum and said you wanted to add transendental meditation to the boxing curriculum or practice you might get a few responses similar to what you’ve gotten here. They might point out to you that such practices really don’t help your boxing or have anything to do with boxing and that isn’t what boxing is really about. Now if you wanted to talk about some new exercise or diet that could help with their boxing they would listen and consider it.[/QUOTE]

So you’re saying that Qigong, meditation, and body conditioning don’t help Wing Chun or boxing for that matter? You obviously have never done these things. If you had, you would never say that. And since you used a boxing forum as an example, I will say that boxers are far more open-minded than most Wing Chun guys. I used to train in boxing as well and those guys were very open-minded about things. They weren’t always arguing about what is and isn’t boxing and satisfying what they view as tradition. They want what works. If it’s effective and legal, they’ll do it. And what do you think medicine ball training is? It’s a form of body conditioning. It was in fact a guy at the boxing gym that introduced me to Wing Chun and he used some of the principles in his boxing. Every experienced fighter knows that the most important part of a fight is to remain alert and relaxed and not get tensed. If you do, all your technique goes out the window. Qigong and meditation helps tremendously with this as it helps you learn to control your breathing and relax. And body conditioning helps with your ability to take hits. Unless you’re a perfect fighter, you WILL get hit and that’s a fact. It also helps you to hit harder and of course you build those iron bridges. But of course, these things don’t benefit the boxer or Wing Chun fighter, do they?

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So you’re saying that Qigong, meditation, and body conditioning don’t help Wing Chun or boxing for that matter? You obviously have never done these things. If you had, you would never say that.

I think he’s suggesting that some people seem to think that quigong, meditation etc are PART of WC… they arent, no more than weight training is.

Thats not saying they arent useful.

And since you used a boxing forum as an example, I will say that boxers are far more open-minded than most Wing Chun guys.

I box, and i agree

I used to train in boxing as well and those guys were very open-minded about things. They weren’t always arguing about what is and isn’t boxing and satisfying what they view as tradition. They want what works. If it’s effective and legal, they’ll do it. And what do you think medicine ball training is? It’s a form of body conditioning. It was in fact a guy at the boxing gym that introduced me to Wing Chun and he used some of the principles in his boxing. Every experienced fighter knows that the most important part of a fight is to remain alert and relaxed and not get tensed. If you do, all your technique goes out the window
.

All fair points

Qigong and meditation helps tremendously with this as it helps you learn to control your breathing and relax. And body conditioning helps with your ability to take hits. Unless you’re a perfect fighter, you WILL get hit and that’s a fact. It also helps you to hit harder and of course you build those iron bridges. But of course, these things don’t benefit the boxer or Wing Chun fighter, do they?

As i said, i think his point is that you dont have to do the above things to be successful… there are alternatives

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1232409]And then follow YOUR direction?[/QUOTE]

Not at all! We all know that nobody likes to take direction from non-fighters :frowning:

What I have witnessed in my experience is that people who talk about structure testing seem fixed in their ways and not open to others. I have structure tests, many of them in fact, that are different to some I see albeit no better or worse but definitely beneficial for variuos reasons.

If people just sat together and discussed these things more openly, having ears for ideas as they say, we would all see the benefit of exchange. Something I have struggled to find even within my own family!

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[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1232291]But i have trained with two wing chun schools in saint louis!!![/QUOTE]

Ok, is this one of the two schools? http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53354

I asked the initial question because you make a lot of blanket statements, and wanted to give you the chance to show it was based on actual experience and not ‘just what you’ve heard’ and speculation.
I would assume you’ve trained (not visited) at quite a few IM schools in your 15+ years of training to fairly make this type of blanket statement:

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1232291]VERY FEW ip man lineage wing chun schools teach the following… [edit] … i could go on and on about whats not done!!![/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=hulkout;1232412]So you’re saying that Qigong, meditation, and body conditioning don’t help Wing Chun or boxing for that matter?
[/QUOTE]

My personal view is that I would rather spend my limited time doing other things besides meditation and qigong. I could list many things that coiuld be very helpful to your wing chun practice from kettlebells to diet to road work or jumping rope and on and on. That does not mean I think they should be a part of wing chun.

Why do you feel the need to make something a part of wing chun. If you find it useful for you then by all means have at it but why try to impose it as a part of wing chun so that everyone should do it? Different people do wing chun for many different reasons so their needs and interests are different.

You obviously have never done these things. If you had, you would never say that.

I will leave it to others to evaluate this statement.

And since you used a boxing forum as an example, I will say that boxers are far more open-minded than most Wing Chun guys. I used to train in boxing as well and those guys were very open-minded about things. They weren’t always arguing about what is and isn’t boxing and satisfying what they view as tradition.

How many of these open minded boxing gyms are practicing qigong and meditation?

They want what works. If it’s effective and legal, they’ll do it.

Yes which is why they are not doing qigong and meditation.

And what do you think medicine ball training is? It’s a form of body conditioning. It was in fact a guy at the boxing gym that introduced me to Wing Chun and he used some of the principles in his boxing. Every experienced fighter knows that the most important part of a fight is to remain alert and relaxed and not get tensed. If you do, all your technique goes out the window. Qigong and meditation helps tremendously with this as it helps you learn to control your breathing and relax. And body conditioning helps with your ability to take hits. Unless you’re a perfect fighter, you WILL get hit and that’s a fact. It also helps you to hit harder and of course you build those iron bridges. But of course, these things don’t benefit the boxer or Wing Chun fighter, do they?

As I mentioned not everyone in wing chun has the same interest. If someone’s interest in wing chun is to fight then I think they will need to train like a fighter and that will mean a great deal of conditioning and not just body condititioning and it will also mean being very, very fit so you will need a very good exerices program and you will need a good diet to support that exercise plan and so on. If someone is doing wing chun more as recreation then they don’t need to do that.

There are many combat sport athletes who fight all the time and are able to be relaxed with breath control and so forth and they are not doing qigong and meditating to accomplish this.

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What I have witnessed in my experience is that people who talk about structure testing seem fixed in their ways and not open to others. I have structure tests, many of them in fact, that are different to some I see albeit no better or worse but definitely beneficial for variuos reasons.

What and how you want to achieve in fighting dictates the structure you should have i should think. Different WC styles want to do things a bit differently so the structures vary accordingly

If people just sat together and discussed these things more openly, having ears for ideas as they say, we would all see the benefit of exchange. Something I have struggled to find even within my own family!

Perhaps, but i think one of the problems is peoples level of “devotion” to their style. Personally, i find the whole “we are one family” thing a bit weird, but respect those that view it that way.
So youll have some people that adhere to the style both technically and culturally, in some cases, and some that use what suits and dont give the “family” thing a second thought.

With that sort of base differences there is never going to be one big happy family

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Personally, i find the whole “we are one family” thing a bit weird, but respect those that view it that way.

I don’t think the “family” thing helps at all. At best, you belong to a club of people that practice Wing Chun. That can be great. Don’t make it out to be more than it is.

I’m reminded of Charles Manson every time I hear someone talk about a “Wing Chun family”.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1232407]
Do you mean, maybe if we were all on YOUR structural page?[/QUOTE]

While that would make it easier for me, I don’t think my interpretation of Wing Chun is refined enough to be a representation of the core system.

Wing Chun is an honest art, if we can say “this structure should support force here and here” then it doesn’t take much testing to find out what does and does not support force at the indicated vectors.

I’ve studied WC from more than one lineage, really all that’s taught me is to have an open mind, be willing to learn from others, but at the same time don’t be afraid to call BS when you see it as long as your reasoning is sound.

Be open, be honest, especially with yourself, that’s the WC way.

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1232537]… but i think one of the problems is peoples level of “devotion” to their style. Personally, i find the whole “we are one family” thing a bit weird, but respect those that view it that way.[/QUOTE]

For me, when I was in training, I never thought about anyone outside my little ‘family’ bubble other than other students/clubs that were directly related to our family. It was just a label, culturally enforced I feel, that my Sifu used as it was easier for us to understand that his ‘kung fu brother’ was our ‘uncle’ and anyone outside that direct link were considered Wing Chun family, rather than Lee shing Family. people nowadays still use the ‘lineage’ term, and this IMHO is no different at all.

Unfortunately, with the many variations and such, I think westerners have really been pushed to their limits with all this stuff. We were all considered Ip Family until the 1990’s, and especially since 1997 China has really tried to take a hold of this flourishing export!

So to keep on subject, Stuff That Most People Don’t Do will have to include practising the Chinese Cultural Arts like language and music. It isn’t just Heigung that could be beneficial to your Wing Chun, but as others have said too, these interests shouldn’t need to be included simply just to make your Wing Chun different than the next persons.

It’s all personal choice, and in some cases it will really depend on local accessibility too.