Structure or Stickiness etc.

[Han_Man]

Hello Again

Firstly:-

Victor,
If I could play Devil’s advocate for a while – if Wing Chun doesn’t teach you how to deal with people from a longer range, would it not be a more efficient use of time to train in Thai Boxing, which most certainly does have both longer and shorter (pre-contact and in-contact) methods?

Secondly

With regards to punching power, I’m now thinking that Wing Chun can be used to develop a very strong punch and that this is a primary objective since a central concept to the system is to punch first. If a system of defence has the idea of landing a punch as the key concept within the system, then surely developing a strong punch should be the most important part of the system? Hence my thinking on what Chi Sau is for i.e.:-

1. To generate forward force from pushing off the ground, through hips and elbow, and into the fist. Force generated via the structure / alignment and the correct training methods should create as powerful a ‘forward’ punch as any other forward punching technique.

2. To enable the ability via structural awareness / force, to deal with incoming force (assailant’s arms etc) to be able to divert incoming force without needing to pivot or compromise the concept of facing. Hence being more likely to deliver another punch quicker than an assailant should the need be, as well as having the opportunity to match your two hands against your assailant’s one hand.

Furthermore I’d like to expand on the question about whether the forms teach concepts and exercises for training concepts or actual applications. For example in SNT when you Bong and then use the upward palm strike, is this:-

1.A sequence that forms a fighting application that works. I.e. Somebody attacks you in some way and your response involves use of the Bong followed by upward palm, just as in the form.

2. Simply two techniques demonstrated one after the other – i.e. a demonstration of a Bong followed by a demonstration of a different type of strike.

3. An exercise designed to ensure that your elbow always returns to the downward position after using a Bong and before / as part of you next strike (which should be a punch). If a punch was used here in the form instead of an upward palm, then over time people would start the punch before returning the elbow to the correct position, consequently an upward palm (which has to have the elbow in the correct position – other wise it would start to look like a diagonal palm) is used.

Cheers,

Phil

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=Han Man;774997]Hello Again

Firstly:-

Victor,
If I could play Devil’s advocate for a while – if Wing Chun doesn’t teach you how to deal with people from a longer range, would it not be a more efficient use of time to train in Thai Boxing, which most certainly does have both longer and shorter (pre-contact and in-contact) methods?
[/QUOTE]

In my view, it wouldn’t make much sense to have a contact (short range) method of fighting that doesn’t provide you with the tools/skills to get there.

Secondly

With regards to punching power, I’m now thinking that Wing Chun can be used to develop a very strong punch and that this is a primary objective since a central concept to the system is to punch first. If a system of defence has the idea of landing a punch as the key concept within the system, then surely developing a strong punch should be the most important part of the system? Hence my thinking on what Chi Sau is for i.e.:-

In my view the “reason” the focus is on developing the punch in WCK is because that is a means of developing our body structure or body mechanics that will, in turn, be used in just about everything we do. The punch isn’t some isolated thing, and it can’t be developed independent of the body mechanics. In fact, the punch is merely a conduit or extension of that mechanics/structure. So, of course, the development of the punch (body mechanics/structure) will tie in to everything else we do.

1. To generate forward force from pushing off the ground, through hips and elbow, and into the fist. Force generated via the structure / alignment and the correct training methods should create as powerful a ‘forward’ punch as any other forward punching technique.

No, it won’t. An overhand right, for example, thrown “correctly” is much more powerful. The WCK punch, in my view, is for attached striking. And if you are not attached and want to remain in free movement, the WCK punch doesn’t make good sense to me. There are better ways to strike. But when we are attached to the opponent, certain demands and limitations are placed upon us (for example, we must maintain facing, keep our balance, etc.). Good WCK body mechanics/structure provides the optimum balance between meeting those demands and producing power. Besides, the objective of the punch is to destroy the opponent’s structure, not necessarily as a finishing technique.

2. To enable the ability via structural awareness / force, to deal with incoming force (assailant’s arms etc) to be able to divert incoming force without needing to pivot or compromise the concept of facing. Hence being more likely to deliver another punch quicker than an assailant should the need be, as well as having the opportunity to match your two hands against your assailant’s one hand.

The structure of the punch does permit us to receive incoming pressure and destroy his structure (the other side of the coin). But it’s not a matter of “speed” – being able to punch more quickly than the opponent.

Furthermore I’d like to expand on the question about whether the forms teach concepts and exercises for training concepts or actual applications. For example in SNT when you Bong and then use the upward palm strike, is this:-

1.A sequence that forms a fighting application that works. I.e. Somebody attacks you in some way and your response involves use of the Bong followed by upward palm, just as in the form.

2. Simply two techniques demonstrated one after the other – i.e. a demonstration of a Bong followed by a demonstration of a different type of strike.

3. An exercise designed to ensure that your elbow always returns to the downward position after using a Bong and before / as part of you next strike (which should be a punch). If a punch was used here in the form instead of an upward palm, then over time people would start the punch before returning the elbow to the correct position, consequently an upward palm (which has to have the elbow in the correct position – other wise it would start to look like a diagonal palm) is used.

Cheers,

Phil

The linked sets (forms) are in many ways like ink blots – people read into them what they want to. And that projection depends upon their level of skill (which determines their level of understanding of how to apply WCK).

[k_gledhill]

The system is for close range , granted. Why ? because it will minimize our chances of injury by attacking at the constant distances of chisao. Not sticking to arms but striking in ‘our’ trained distances using short shuffling steps to harness an unbroken line of leg force as we do driving off the rear heel [not step ‘n’ drag as some see the ink blot :D]…we stay with what comes because its to our advantage…we follow as it tries to regain its ‘advantage’ and trap/hit as we advance relentlessly.

We test ourselves by delivering inch punches to show correct or incorrect distance at the critical period of countering an incoming limb [seung ma toi ma] by the test we can ‘check’ our structure is capable of delivering a ging shot by simply driving the heel and fist apart in a short sharp shock …if the recipient of the test moves with sufficient ease , one can rest assured that if delivered full force in the correct timing angles etc… the end results will be effective…

No contact needs to be maintained while hitting in this manner, but if a strike is interupted we train to remove and simultaneously hit with the rear vu position, basic thinking. More often than not 1 punch is all it takes, to me anyway . IN reality nobody is prepared for your ‘shot’ they dont know you do VT , let alone any MA. Its hiding a concealed weapon and pulling it at the last second. Like surprise attacks , they rarely fail same with flanking responses to head on charges, flank to soon and the charge just comes at you, to late and your overwhlemed head on, sounds like chisao, all good sound military directives, overwhelm with superior forces yadayadayada.

ink blots are just ink blots unless your being told what to see by some who were told as well…what do you see ? I see unconsious people.

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;775017]The system is for close range , granted. Why ? because it will minimize our chances of injury by attacking at the constant distances of chisao. Not sticking to arms but striking in ‘our’ trained distances using short shuffling steps to harness an unbroken line of leg force as we do driving off the rear heel [not step ‘n’ drag as some see the ink blot :D]…we stay with what comes because its to our advantage…we follow as it tries to regain its ‘advantage’ and trap/hit as we advance relentlessly.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know if there is a “why” about it. BJJ is for the ground. Why? Because that’s where its tools work. WCK’s tools work in contact. If you are in close range and not in contact (which can provide control over an opponent), it is equal – both sides can do anything. The contact permits us to limit what the opponent can do.

In my view, we don’t want to stay and won’t be able to stay in “chi sao range” for any length of time, because it is very difficult to maintain control in that range and because if the opponent is good, he’ll go right through that range. Chi sao is an unrealistic exercise; it doesn’t represent the reality of a fight. We can maintain contact but no certain range.

We test ourselves by delivering inch punches to show correct or incorrect distance at the critical period of countering an incoming limb [seung ma toi ma] by the test we can ‘check’ our structure is capable of delivering a ging shot by simply driving the heel and fist apart in a short sharp shock …if the recipient of the test moves with sufficient ease , one can rest assured that if delivered full force in the correct timing angles etc… the end results will be effective…

Inch (short range) power is in everything we do in my view, and if we are in contact, we should be able to use it. There is no"correct" and “incorrect” distance. Our performance of something, even if done properly, is no guarantee of effectiveness (the result we want).

No contact needs to be maintained while hitting in this manner, but if a strike is interupted we train to remove and simultaneously hit with the rear vu position, basic thinking. More often than not 1 punch is all it takes, to me anyway . IN reality nobody is prepared for your ‘shot’ they dont know you do VT , let alone any MA. Its hiding a concealed weapon and pulling it at the last second. Like surprise attacks , they rarely fail same with flanking responses to head on charges, flasnk to soon and the charge just comes at you to late and your overwhlemed head on, sounds like chisao, all good sound military directives, overwhelm with superior forces yadayadayada.

Yes, people can get into close range and just punch (without contact). But that’s a risky strategy IME – because if the other guy is any good and has any skills, he’ll be hitting you too. My WCK is to be low risk and high percentage. If anyone believes “all it takes” is “1 punch”, they don’t have much experience IMO. Trained people, and even a lot of untrained people - particularly if they are larger than yourself - can take many good shots and keep coming.

ink blots are just ink blots unless your being told what to see by some who were told as well…what do you see ? I see unconsious people.

And how do you know what you were told was accurate or that your interpretation of what you were told is correct or that you can even do it the way you were told to or that there isn’t a better way or . . . ? There is theory (this is what I was told or believe) and there is experience (this is what I do and have done). People have all kinds of beliefs - like “1 punch is all it takes”. The problem is our understanding of WCK is limited by and determined by our skill – what we can really do. If you can’t do it in fighting, your theory (“1 punch is all it takes”) is worthless. So in my view, instead of being concerned with what the ink blot “means” (the theory of what we believe about WCK), just be concerned with what you can do (evidence of actual results).

[k_gledhill]

I have personal experience, over 10 years of bar bouncing its not all about the ring or hitting ‘experienced’ people is it ? I dont fight to compete, thats my reality. In my experience guys come in protecting but unaware of the direct shot coming at them …its not so complicated as it seems . a simple end result, by the same token Ive trapped palmed, kicked, elbowed, eye jabbed, etc… as well, so its not just a ‘punch’… hitting bags like any good training will develop your striking capabilities regardless of the name you do ‘it’ under…I hit a lot of heavy bags not air in my training . The results are usually a guy falling over , sometimes when fighting 2 guys I can only eye jab one so I can hit another before he gets me , 1st come 1st served… structure of facing an angle to deliver the force in the right distances , while avoiding yourself being injured but always striving to be in your distances , nobody said it was easy…Ive gone to the ground a few times as well, relying on my judo, that worked to :D, but in a nighclub fighting unknown numbers its best to watch hands for knives and hit whoever gets to close for comfort.
Dont forget that in a street /bar/club/ train encounter there is no preparation or training for it like a ring , a guy starts cursing you or your girl and …its off and runing and you have to be ready, set, go,… not ooops , ouch .VT is about minmizng the ooops factor.

[YungChun]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;775021]
Yes, people can get into close range and just punch (without contact). But that’s a risky strategy IME – because if the other guy is any good and has any skills, he’ll be hitting you too. [/QUOTE]

Which is why you are supposed to be drving into him with body power… Indeed if his center is open and you are hitting him you ARE taking his balance and releasing power.. I wonder what else you are advocating doing in the way of control?

Also wondering what if any value you ascribe Chi Sao, since you seem to advocate “controlling” even if the opponent isn’t occupying the line.

[YungChun]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;775029]I have personal experience, over 10 years of bar bouncing its not all about the ring or hitting ‘experienced’ people is it ? I dont fight to compete, thats my reality. In my experience guys come in protecting but unaware of the direct shot coming at them …its not so complicated as it seems . a simple end result, by the same token Ive trapped palmed, kicked, elbowed, eye jabbed, etc… as well, so its not just a ‘punch’[/QUOTE]

A good and refreshing perspective… Indeed I have also found that the system can “work just fine” despite whatever problems some have had.

As a person using the system from a bouncer’s perspective, I wonder, what is your feeling about the traditional training? Chi Sao, and so on..

Victor and others have mentioned how important being “fearless” can be when fighting.. With so many layers upon layers of doubts and over analysis that is tossed around this board it is a wonder any WCK person who agrees with the myriad limitations exposed here on a moment to moment basis has much if any fearlessness left to spare.. I’ve rarely heard any grapplers agonizing over and over, day after day, year after year, over how to ‘enter’ on their opponents…

[Ultimatewingchun]

Pictures (videos) are worth 1,000 words, as the saying goes. And so when I post a vid or two what I’m trying to say will become more apparent.

But for now, let me say this: I’ve posted numerous times on different threads about using some boxing hands and footwork married to TWC centraline principles - wherein I’m throwing straight leads and rear crosses on certain lines (but actually the word LANE is more appropriate)…

as a means of getting in. And not only does it work - but it works quickly. I can get to close quarter wing chun range very quickly with this method.

So I’m not boxing like a boxer.

I’m using some boxing to get in close - there’s a difference.

And I agree with Andrew Nerlich that at times using some boxing hooks, uppercuts, overhands, etc. from close quarters will work nicely.

As will an occasional rear cross to a hard target from longer range.

And as for the idea that I do this (use some boxing) because my wing chun skills are lacking, great…now show me what you can do, whoever you are (and you know who you are)…

on a vid against a good boxer who knows how to use his longer reach against you, ie.- hooks around your straight punches - or perhaps he uppercuts or overhands as you do that…or maybe he keeps his hands back close to his body (or his side) - and then hooks, uppercuts, overhands, or rear crosses on a different line when you come in close, or by using long leads and crosses to keep you at bay, and then kicks (in combination with hands) from that range as you come in - or maybe he hooks or uppercuts off his lead as you come in - even though you’re thinking that you’ve now got him on defense after blocking, redirecting, or avoiding his longer/straighter punches - and you follow him back in, etc.

Oh, you can’t or won’t do that?

Okay…then show me any vid of any wing chun guy against such a quality boxer (or kickboxer)…with a longer reach. Not interested in training vids or still pictures. Show us a vid of a real match up.

[YungChun]

Clips are out there, have been posted..

The problem is that as soon as the “boxer” starts to take hits or appears to loose the exchanges, etc.. The boxer is no longer a “quality” boxer whatever that means..

Likewise, as soon as the WCK guy starts to loose or looses the exchanges he is no longer a quality WCK guy…

IOW, it’s all relative… In the end its about the fighters themselves and what they do with what they have… I have said it before and will continue to say.. Timing, Distance Awareness, power and heart have more to do with success than any of this technique/system superiority crap… Attributes–the fighter, is what wins or looses fights not systems, not name brands…

[Ultimatewingchun]

What clips are you talking about?

Against someone trained/skilled in boxing.

[YungChun]

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;775085]What clips are you talking about?

Against someone trained/skilled in boxing.[/QUOTE]

It’s the same thing…

If they start loosing they are no longer “skilled” in boxing..

If boxing is better for some folks or in the opinion of some folks then I fail to see why they simply don’t just do Boxing like 99 of most folks..

---

There are quite a few clips of boxing types sparring WCK types.. The most common one was of that WT guy sparring two different boxing types in a large gym…

But I know they weren’t skilled… Oye..

This one seemed fitting to post right now.. Despite a lack of any real contact…

I know he isn’t skilled or whatever the problem was… Still there’s your teacher Victor in a clip I have never seen before..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi-e3a2tw90

[Ultimatewingchun]

“If they start loosing they are no longer “skilled” in boxing..”

***I DON’T BUY THIS ARGUMENT, Jim.

Is Mirko Cro Cop a bad kickboxer because he was brought to the ground and beaten by Fedor, or submitted by Nog?

Is Royce Gracie a bad jiu jitsu fighter because he was kicked relentlessly by Sakuraba?

[YungChun]

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;775093]“If they start loosing they are no longer “skilled” in boxing..”

***I DON"T BUY THIS ARGUMENT, Jim.

Is Mirko Cro Cop a bad kickboxer because he was brought to the ground and beaten by Fedor, or submitted by Nog?

Is Royce Gracie a bad jiu jitsu fighter because he was kicked relentlessly by Sakuraba?[/QUOTE]

It’s not my argument and you need not buy it..

It’s what folks will say, have said, when the boxing type looses the exchanges OR when the WCK guy looses.. We all have reps to protect after all. :rolleyes:

In these kinds of amateur clips we are not talking about nor seeing champion fighters who have made a name in world class competitions or who have international recognition and so that type of comparison does not apply..

[Ultimatewingchun]

Granted we’re not going to see MMA “champions” on such vids - and I see your point about “what some people will say”…

But come on, there’s got to be something out there wherein the trained boxer looks good but he still was bested by a skilled wing chun guy. Or vice versa. Or maybe it looks kind of even between the two of them. No?

…

And that clip of William Cheung and Rafael is a perfect example of what I’m not talking about.

William is taller and has a longer reach than Rafael Ramos. I’m talking about the reverse.

(And yes, Raphael is a skilled boxer. He was trained in Cus D’mato’s peek-a-boo boxing style by trainers at the boxing gym owned by former Light Heavyweight Champion Jose Torres, and Rafael has fought professionally himself back in the day).

[YungChun]

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;775098]Granted we’re not going to see MMA “champions” on such vids - and I see your point about “what some people will say”…

But come on, there’s got to be something out there wherein the trained boxer looks good but he still was bested by a skilled wing chun guy. Or vice versa. Or maybe it looks kind of even between the two of them. No?[/QUOTE]

I think that kind of stuff is out there but again what are the levels of such players and how does it matter in terms of evaluating an art?

Even comparing boxers and WCK folks is comparing apples and oranges..

Most guys who box go in for full contact they WANT to fight–HARD… They DO fight in the ring.. They’re level of training hard is at a different point than most TMA and most WCK folks…

The average TMA and WCK student does NOT want to fight and doesn’t or does as little as possible… IOW they don’t train nearly as hard or as realistically.. We see this in some of the comments made here.. You can tell they have never been in the FIRE because you can’t put out a fire with a squirt gun, as some seem to advocate..

As a result of light training they are lacking the hard core attribute development found in those who train at these higher levels..

And that’s okay.. Everyone is entitled to train at the level they wish.. This unfortunately or not becomes the perceived reflection of the system they train…

[Ultimatewingchun]

And as for this, Jim…

“Victor and others have mentioned how important being “fearless” can be when fighting.. With so many layers upon layers of doubts and over analysis that is tossed around this board it is a wonder any WCK person who agrees with the myriad limitations exposed here on a moment to moment basis has much if any fearlessness left to spare.. I’ve rarely heard any grapplers agonizing over and over, day after day, year after year, over how to ‘enter’ on their opponents…”

***Part of where fearlessness comes from is the experience of seeing that what you do works + the Faith that it will continue to work in the future against those you don’t know.

And at this point - after much experience of fighting/sparring skilled guys (like boxers and kickboxers) with heavy contact to face/head, body, and legs (with gear on)…I have quite a bit of faith in what I’m doing now…mixing some boxing with wing chun and wrestling.

The same taller, heavier boxer who constantly picked me off (or held me pretty much even) in the past is now relatively easy to get in on, for example…when sparring full contact and using thin, semi-fingerless gloves. And he rarely hits me at this point. Not with any solid shots, anyway. And he rarely stops or counters me from getting to him once the fight goes to the wing chun space.

That’s a serious confidence builder.

And the same with two other bigger guys who trained in kickboxing. My success rate aginst them now (in hard contact sparring) is way beyond what it was in the past, ie.- they rarely hit or kick me with any power and have a hell of a time stopping me from hitting them with wing chun attacks from close range.

So I believe I’m on a good track. Better than any other track I’ve been on before.

And against guys who are my size or smaller - wing chun pure and simple works a lot more than it does against the bigger guys. So why is that? Do the math.

[YungChun]

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;775113]And as for this, Jim…

“Victor and others have mentioned how important being “fearless” can be when fighting.. With so many layers upon layers of doubts and over analysis that is tossed around this board it is a wonder any WCK person who agrees with the myriad limitations exposed here on a moment to moment basis has much if any fearlessness left to spare.. I’ve rarely heard any grapplers agonizing over and over, day after day, year after year, over how to ‘enter’ on their opponents…”

***Part of where fearlessness comes from is the experience of seeing that what you do works + the Faith that it will continue to work in the future against those you don’t know.

And at this point - after much experience of fighting/sparring skilled guys (like boxers and kickboxers) with heavy contact to face/head, body, and legs (with gear on)…I have quite a bit of faith in what I’m doing now…mixing some boxing with wing chun and wrestling.

The same taller, heavier boxer who constantly picked me off (or held me pretty much even) in the past is now relatively easy to get in on, for example…when sparring full contact and using thin, semi-fingerless gloves. And he rarely hits me at this point. Not with any solid shots, anyway. And he rarely stops or counters me from getting to him in the wing chun space.

That’s a serious confidence builder.

And the same with two other bigger guys who trained in kickboxing. My success rate aginst them now (in hard contact sparring) is way beyond what it was in the past, ie.- they rarely hit or kick me with any power and have a hell of a time stopping me from hitting them with wing chun attacks from close range.[/QUOTE]

F’in aye.. I think that’s great man!!!

Looking forward to the clips..!

[Ultimatewingchun]

I’m waiting for one of my students to return to class. She’s the camera/editing/internet master. Hope to see her by no later than sometime in September - if not sooner.

[k_gledhill]

I have had a real fight with a boxer once who oddly resorted to a double wrist grab charge in a nightclub. silly man. like a pre-fight press brawl I turned him using chum kil & toi ma then broke the grip as he went past using lan sao and in a flowing action slammed him hard into a wall ,while other security guys joined in to eject him…once outside he pulled a knife on everyone , then left yelling at us, been drinking and started swearng at a manageress of a bar I worked at… I later met up with him again outside the bar I worked in the area , I didnt say a word just pak sao/ trapped him on the outside right elbow and shuffled quickly following him as he tried to escape the arm trap and as he backed into a wall I punched him in the head ,He took the shot and made a strange face before I backed off …he apologized for the previous nights brawl and all was forgiven…and we lived happily ever after
Another boxer was a friend of a fellow student who was brought to class just to spar, he didnt look much, but had some weird low body away / arm in shots to midsection that took some blocking with low gaun sao…his wrist developed a ‘mouse’ from the bone strike of gaun sao on his arm so we stopped.
we always sparred in a random manner after vt class & weekends doing anything so we never had a certain style or ‘way’ coming at us. we trained charging wrist grabs , very common in real encounters …fighting pointfighters who feint hi & lunge low for IPPON ! I always got the point till everyone got used to it… wild spinning back fists etc… random is better than a particular ‘sporting’ encounter imo just so you expect anything and everything always. We would double up on one guy etc.. wrestle / grapple …
we had full face helmets with wire mesh over the eyes to train against eye jabs etc…the helmets restricted ones vision so you would get hit on occasion just by having blind spots…not good always scrappy looking fights . reality is so much easier , nobdy knows whats coming

[JPinAZ]

[QUOTE=YungChun;775092]
There are quite a few clips of boxing types sparring WCK types.. The most common one was of that WT guy sparring two different boxing types in a large gym…

But I know they weren’t skilled… Oye..

This one seemed fitting to post right now.. Despite a lack of any real contact…

I know he isn’t skilled or whatever the problem was… Still there’s your teacher Victor in a clip I have never seen before..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi-e3a2tw90[/QUOTE]

You know what I like about this video, not once did you see GM WC have to use a jab or cross on the outside to close the distance. All ‘looks’ like good’ol WC being used to bridge and close the distance

– IMO opinion, space is space. From what I learned in WC, I first just occupy MY space with proper sturcture, and either a bridge will come to me, or I will find myself in the range to strike - the height/reach difference between me and my opponent should matter less if I have the right focus, gate theory, space awareness etc. my opponent still has to get his arm past my arms to strike my face right? If I stick to my WC ‘game’, There should be a bridge before he reaches my face - so there ya go, we just entered the ‘WC range’. I used to box, and after training WC, I really don’t see a time when I need any of those ‘techniques’ anymore. The principles & concepts of WC have showed me they are not necessary.

IMO, if I still felt I needed to use the less-structured attacks from boxing, that would tell me there are holes in the WC I am learning (or that my understanding just isn’t there yet).
Also, IMO, people cross train because they find hole in what they are learning. This is what MMA is all about. So far, from what I found in WC, it has the answers to deal with a boxer. At least from my previous experience.

JP