Strongest punch?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Vankuen;995165]
But then again, hitting the bag gives the same feedback, hitting the focus mitts does not.
[/QUOTE]

IME that is a function of velocity.. A short range strike, employing short power will never have as much velocity as that Reverse Punch or name your similar technique..

The key is to hit with your whole body… and to maximize the incorporation of your total body mass..and joints.. via body alignment (connected mass) and using all those muscles/joints (esp legs) to make that power (sequential summation of motion). Like Mr Miyagi said, secret of power is ‘whole body, (into) one inch’. :slight_smile: It’s all in the forms, you just need to express it in action, but maybe you already are…

I’m sure folks could share some different tools they use to measure and train striking power.. In the old days I used to hang a piece of plywood by some string.. Very tough to break at first..but it can be done.. One of the best ways to get more power when hitting folks is to keep hitting folks… They will give you plenty of feedback..both verbal and non verbal.. :smiley:

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IMO a part of the problem is comparing a “natural” punch to a Wing Chun punch, is comparing a punch with freedom of body movement (stepping, torso twisting, bending or straightening) to a punch with all kinds of limits placed on it. Most Wing Chun punches are stiff and robotic, but they don’t need to be.

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[QUOTE=Vankuen;995166]So in your opinion is it simply a matter of repitition of the proper form that allows your instructor that power? Or is there something more to it?[/QUOTE]The saying goes " repetition is the mother of skill". I would say that is true, IF you a repeating correct action. Certainly form and structure are a significant part of correct action. Others have indicated other keys as well.

To me Relaxation, especially in the shoulders, but throughout the body is critical. You may have have all the form and structure you want, but if you are tight, you kill the power. Think of tension as kinks in a hose. A kink in a hose limits or even cuts off the water flow. You can turn the valve up as high as you can to get maximum power from the water source, but the water power is cut down the line by these points of tension.

That’s why I mentioned the word “natural” before. If you think something is natural, you tend to let it flow. If you’re trying to achieve a certain effect that you see as unnatural then there might be a tendancy to try and force it and create tension that is counter-productive. The harder you try, the less effective power you have.

Just a suggestion.

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;995172]IMHO, when discussing Wing Chun punching power one cannot ignore the importance of breathing and its role in power generation…

My most powerful WC punch is the same as that of k gledhill, the turning facing strike. Having said that, the hammer fist strike is also a very powerful weapon but needs to be practiced to make it more “natural”.[/QUOTE]

What do you attribute as the primary factor for that punch being your hardest?

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[QUOTE=punchdrunk;995186]IMO a part of the problem is comparing a “natural” punch to a Wing Chun punch, is comparing a punch with freedom of body movement (stepping, torso twisting, bending or straightening) to a punch with all kinds of limits placed on it. Most Wing Chun punches are stiff and robotic, but they don’t need to be.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I practice both the chung kuen and cross the same way, both “natural” and from guard.

Obviously the more alive version of it feels more right but then I’ve always felt that was a better way to go.

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[QUOTE=Matrix;995191]The saying goes " repetition is the mother of skill". I would say that is true, IF you a repeating correct action. Certainly form and structure are a significant part of correct action. Others have indicated other keys as well.

To me Relaxation, especially in the shoulders, but throughout the body is critical. You may have have all the form and structure you want, but if you are tight, you kill the power. Think of tension as kinks in a hose. A kink in a hose limits or even cuts off the water flow. You can turn the valve up as high as you can to get maximum power from the water source, but the water power is cut down the line by these points of tension.

That’s why I mentioned the word “natural” before. If you think something is natural, you tend to let it flow. If you’re trying to achieve a certain effect that you see as unnatural then there might be a tendancy to try and force it and create tension that is counter-productive. The harder you try, the less effective power you have.

Just a suggestion.[/QUOTE]

I think there is much wisdom in this post. Thanks for the elab’

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[QUOTE=Matrix;995191]To me Relaxation, especially in the shoulders, but throughout the body is critical. You may have have all the form and structure you want, but if you are tight, you kill the power. Think of tension as kinks in a hose. A kink in a hose limits or even cuts off the water flow. You can turn the valve up as high as you can to get maximum power from the water source, but the water power is cut down the line by these points of tension.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this, and wanted to bring it up in the context of how punching is trained. If you do not train striking in an alive 100% contact environment, then when you do get into an evironment like that, there is a great deal of tension present due to the situation being different than how you train. I see this with fighters - there is a “first fight” experience they all go through - the tension, the adrenaline dump, the narrowing of focus and skillset. People forget to do things in the ring/cage that they know how to do in practice. If you train in an environment similar to that it minimizes this effect.

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[QUOTE=Vankuen;995199]I think there is much wisdom in this post. Thanks for the elab’[/QUOTE]I don’t know about wisdom. I am just offering my thoughts on the topic. It’s why we come here. To ask, to listen, to learn. By offering my thoughts to you, I need to articulate them in a way that helps me to clarify my own understanding. I find that whole process interesting.

Thank you

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[QUOTE=Wayfaring;995228] If you do not train striking in an alive 100% contact environment, then when you do get into an evironment like that, there is a great deal of tension present due to the situation being different than how you train. [/QUOTE]Yes, and if you can’t relax in a more neutral environment, then you haven’t got a hope of being achieving results when you really need them.

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it really depends on how you classify a “wing chun punch”. i assume you just use your arm

if you throw your punch without turning your hips or shoulder or putting any body weight into it, then you are just using your arms and of course it will not have as much power compared to a punch thrown with hips and shoulders.

not everyone throws a “wing chun punch” like that

[QUOTE=Vankuen;995034]I bring this up because tonight I was working the bag and focus mitts, and my girlfriend stated that the wing chun punch didn’t seem to feel like it had as much power as my natural cross.

I asked her “in what way do you mean?” She said when I throw a quick and natural cross (from arms being held naturally at my sides) it radiates through her wrist, elbow, shoulder, and body. She said when I throw the wing chun punch it doesn’t feel the same, like it doesn’t radiate through her arm as much.

So I tested it on something more resiliant–my heavy bag (not swinging, just solid against the wall). It felt and sounded just as powerful as a natural overhand right…but doing it again on the pads it indeed felt like there wasn’t as much feedback–yet structurally everything felt right and all was lined up–elbow, hips, wrist–rooted to the ground.

Possible Factors?

  • Pad holder not giving the same feedback for each punch
  • The wing chun punch is just weaker by way of design (or you could say the natural punch (cross) is stronger by design)
  • Perhaps I did not give enough follow through with my wing chun punch as compared to my natural cross (or perhaps I wasn't close enough to the pad to give it enough penetrating power)
  • I did not have enough chi behind it
  • My wing chun is terrible and I should just quit now

In any case though it got me thinking about puching power…what have you been told your strongest punch was? Doesn’t matter if its wing chun or otherwise. I’ve had my normal partner tell me my overhand right is enough to drop him even with the belly pad on. I’ve been told by others that the wing chun straight punch is strong, but no where near the same level as the overhand. So while the wing chun punch was considered to be strong by this guy–relatively speaking the boxing punch was simply stronger (in feel through pads)

On a side note do you think that the wing chun punch can be as strong as any other punch in general – or more specifically the cross? Or do you think that the punch is limited by its design relatively speaking?

Do you depend on li for the power or chi? If its the latter, have you compared the punch with other punches that you learned that might not depend on chi specifically?[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=Vankuen;995196]What do you attribute as the primary factor for that punch being your hardest?[/QUOTE]

IMHO, sometimes when one tries to identify primary factors in some kung fu techniques, one will be in danger of missing the wood for the trees.

So to answer your question in another way, the punch will have its power when various factors come together and meet at the point of impact.

So we are talking about aspects that include, forward motion; body unity; relaxedness; borrowed power coming through the bridge(block), transferring through the turning of the (rooted) stance into the fist and of course the correct/well timed breathing.

All of this together will result in the power effect of the punch.

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The thing that you have to remember is that a strong punch needs to be something that is landable. There are ways to throw a cross that would knock down a door, but that type of cross is almost un-landable. The WC cross is nice and tight and highly landable among other things.

It all works to some extent or another it just depends on your purpose.

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[QUOTE=Pacman;995248]it really depends on how you classify a “wing chun punch”. i assume you just use your arm

if you throw your punch without turning your hips or shoulder or putting any body weight into it, then you are just using your arms and of course it will not have as much power compared to a punch thrown with hips and shoulders.

not everyone throws a “wing chun punch” like that[/QUOTE]

You know what they say about assuming. :wink:

Though I agree that people will inherently do things differently, in my case everything comes from the ground, through the joints and into the point of impact. I just noticed that there’s a distinct difference from one punch to the other.

The key word is “relative”.

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“The key is to hit with your whole body… and to maximize the incorporation of your total body mass..and joints.. via body alignment (connected mass) and using all those muscles/joints (esp legs) to make that power (sequential summation of motion). Like Mr Miyagi said, secret of power is ‘whole body, (into) one inch’. It’s all in the forms, you just need to express it in action, but maybe you already are…” (Jim/Yungchun)

…

“To me Relaxation, especially in the shoulders, but throughout the body is critical. You may have have all the form and structure you want, but if you are tight, you kill the power. Think of tension as kinks in a hose. A kink in a hose limits or even cuts off the water flow. You can turn the valve up as high as you can to get maximum power from the water source, but the water power is cut down the line by these points of tension.” (Matrix)

***TWO GOOD POSTS right there. Wow! Van is back, Jim is back, Bill is back…and already this forum is starting to look and read like a wing chun forum again! :wink:

And when Wayfaring followed Bill/Matrix’s remarks with this:

“If you do not train striking in an alive 100% contact environment, then when you do get into an evironment like that, there is a great deal of tension present due to the situation being different than how you train. I see this with fighters - there is a “first fight” experience they all go through - the tension, the adrenaline dump, the narrowing of focus and skillset. People forget to do things in the ring/cage that they know how to do in practice. If you train in an environment similar to that it minimizes this effect…”

****THEN WE GOT TO SEE a serious wing chun punching thread in action once again! Very cool…:cool:

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;995262]“The key is to hit with your whole body… and to maximize the incorporation of your total body mass..and joints.. via body alignment (connected mass) and using all those muscles/joints (esp legs) to make that power (sequential summation of motion). Like Mr Miyagi said, secret of power is ‘whole body, (into) one inch’. It’s all in the forms, you just need to express it in action, but maybe you already are…” (Jim/Yungchun)

…

“To me Relaxation, especially in the shoulders, but throughout the body is critical. You may have have all the form and structure you want, but if you are tight, you kill the power. Think of tension as kinks in a hose. A kink in a hose limits or even cuts off the water flow. You can turn the valve up as high as you can to get maximum power from the water source, but the water power is cut down the line by these points of tension.” (Matrix)

***TWO GOOD POSTS right there. Wow! Van is back, Jim is back, Bill is back…and already this forum is starting to look and read like a wing chun forum again! :wink:

And when Wayfaring followed Bill/Matrix’s remarks with this:

“If you do not train striking in an alive 100% contact environment, then when you do get into an evironment like that, there is a great deal of tension present due to the situation being different than how you train. I see this with fighters - there is a “first fight” experience they all go through - the tension, the adrenaline dump, the narrowing of focus and skillset. People forget to do things in the ring/cage that they know how to do in practice. If you train in an environment similar to that it minimizes this effect…”

****THEN WE GOT TO SEE a serious wing chun punching thread in action once again! Very cool…:cool:[/QUOTE]

Agreed. These are the kinds of conversations that should be more prevelent in this forum. Doesn’t matter who is better than who, or even if someone does something different. It all is wing chun in some form or fashion, and its the differences that can help us all to see things in a universal way instead of in a narrow-minded way.

:wink: There’s a rhyme and reason for the questions I ask. I like to use them to spur discussions that can help bring to light the details that we all learn about through our individual paths to enlightment.

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Who needs a strong punch when you can do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDYyv-iLmRY

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So in your opinion is it simply a matter of repitition of the proper form that allows your instructor that power? Or is there something more to it?

Repetition, yes, I think, but not mindless repetition. He did, and made his students do, a lot of integration of footwork, strike, and breath. Big on relaxation as well.

My instructor, while not a couch potato, wasn’t hugely into physical conditioning.

OTOH, he was a nidan in goju ryu back in the sixties before he switched to TCMA, back in the days when they used to break large quantities of building materials…

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[QUOTE=anerlich;995301]Repetition, yes, I think, but not mindless repetition. He did, and made his students do, a lot of integration of footwork, strike, and breath. Big on relaxation as well.

My instructor, while not a couch potato, wasn’t hugely into physical conditioning.

OTOH, he was a nidan in goju ryu back in the sixties before he switched to TCMA, back in the days when they used to break large quantities of building materials…[/QUOTE]

:smiley: That might have something to do with it. One of the best ways to develop punching power is by punching things…hard.

39

[QUOTE=Vankuen;995034]I bring this up because tonight I was working the bag and focus mitts, and my girlfriend stated that the wing chun punch didn’t seem to feel like it had as much power as my natural cross.

I asked her “in what way do you mean?” She said when I throw a quick and natural cross (from arms being held naturally at my sides) it radiates through her wrist, elbow, shoulder, and body. She said when I throw the wing chun punch it doesn’t feel the same, like it doesn’t radiate through her arm as much.

So I tested it on something more resiliant–my heavy bag (not swinging, just solid against the wall). It felt and sounded just as powerful as a natural overhand right…but doing it again on the pads it indeed felt like there wasn’t as much feedback–yet structurally everything felt right and all was lined up–elbow, hips, wrist–rooted to the ground.

Possible Factors?

  • Pad holder not giving the same feedback for each punch
  • The wing chun punch is just weaker by way of design (or you could say the natural punch (cross) is stronger by design)
  • Perhaps I did not give enough follow through with my wing chun punch as compared to my natural cross (or perhaps I wasn't close enough to the pad to give it enough penetrating power)
  • I did not have enough chi behind it
  • My wing chun is terrible and I should just quit now

In any case though it got me thinking about puching power…what have you been told your strongest punch was? Doesn’t matter if its wing chun or otherwise. I’ve had my normal partner tell me my overhand right is enough to drop him even with the belly pad on. I’ve been told by others that the wing chun straight punch is strong, but no where near the same level as the overhand. So while the wing chun punch was considered to be strong by this guy–relatively speaking the boxing punch was simply stronger (in feel through pads)

On a side note do you think that the wing chun punch can be as strong as any other punch in general – or more specifically the cross? Or do you think that the punch is limited by its design relatively speaking?

Do you depend on li for the power or chi? If its the latter, have you compared the punch with other punches that you learned that might not depend on chi specifically?[/QUOTE]

There are two types of “power” that one can produce, though they typically work together.
Momentum based impact force - Cross, hook, uppercut, round kick, etc.
Teh impact force of this strikes is based on the momentum generated, as such, the longer the limb, the faster the acceleration, the rigidity of the contact surface and much more, all play into how much impact force will be felt ( what is felt and what is generated are NOT the same thing by the way).
The other type is “impulse” or kinetic energy based impact force- usually called “fa jing” in TCMA.
This force is based on the amount of energy one can “put into” the target and has very little to do with momentum.
Think Jab or backfist to short elbows, snapping front kicks, things of this nature.
The vast majority of pads and bag tend to deprive kinetic energy based strikes from most of their “BAM” because they absorbe the strike and as such, momentum based strikes are more obvious.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;995327]There are two types of “power” that one can produce, though they typically work together.
Momentum based impact force - The other type is “impulse” or kinetic energy
[/QUOTE]

That’s the way I thought of fa jing [kinetic energy]…at least the way I interpreted it in terms of western science. I’d listen to the chinese theory and think about how it correlated with science to find the western “equivelent”.

I thought about this too…in terms of physics.

If we can agree that force = mass x velocity^2…
and we can safely say that the mass is the same…
than the only piece that can affect the amount of force is the velocity.
[INDENT]For the velocity piece, I think that the equation of initial velocity + acceleration x time would be appropriate. [/indent]

If we’re using these equations (generally of course since there’s no hard numbers)…I’d say that perhaps the fact that the wing chun punch doesn’t travel in as much distance, and hence not able to build up as much acceleration, that perhaps the punch is limited by design relative to the overhand or cross due to that punch’s longer pathway and thus higher level of achieved acceleration (assuming that the amount of acceleration isn’t maxed within the same distance as the wing chun punch).

Then again…if we’re talking impact force then the equation would change a bit to be m x v^2 / time of contact (time of contact being contact area / velocity^2). So the amount of time in contact could be a factor as well.

Either way…kinetic energy is developed through acceleration. The amount of kinetic energy an object has is related to its velocity (x 2). So if we can agree on that, would not the wing chun punch be a disadvantage unless the puncher could accelerate the same amount as the cross in that shorter distance?

Yes-No? I’m not a physics major I just thought it’d be fun to look at it in more structured terms.