Anyone ever heard of these?
Are they real?
If so are they forms or exercises?
Long or short in duration?
Thanks for any info.
Chyun Ji Doi Da
If you mean the Chin Na Form of the seven star praying mantis called Chyun Ji Doi Da - yes it´s a real high level partner form! With much Trapping, pressing, locks, sweeps, rolling, hitting etc …
Its quite long and full of new experiences for everyone, no matter how many partnersets you learned before! It´s pure fun and 200% Mantis! 
Pai An
Sound like Pai An (slap press) which is indeed a 2 person form/drill. Basically, there are 3 sections of drills that link together. There are different versions of it. We have covered this before. If you are interested, we can go over that here again.
Mantis108
Thanks for the info guys!
I think Pai an is what I was thinking about.
I picked the three exercises up from a friend (kind of) and was wondering if they were real or somthing from a tape or the like.
I have 3.
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deals with pressing down with the first hand and sliding in with a strike ending in a strike to ribs with the opponent doing an elbow control or break. the the other side executes the atack.
Three r four moves each side -
Is much the same as one except you use traping with a hook hand.
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Is similar but seems to be mostly “sticky hands” stuff
you can also add kicks with the first two not sure about the 3rd.
Do these seem like the real thing to you 108?
Thanks
Pai An
This is one of my favs, but I only know part of it. Robert, can you explain the 3 sections for me? And what version do you know? Did you pick this up from TM? For some reason, this drill seems so secretive and I wonder why? Sorry for so many questions. Thank you in advance.
If you mean the Chin Na Form of the seven star praying mantis called Chyun Ji Doi Da - yes it´s a real high level partner form! With much Trapping, pressing, locks, sweeps, rolling, hitting etc …
Want to learn that, want to learn that, want to learn that…
Re: Chyun Ji Doi Da
Originally posted by German Bai Lung
[B]If you mean the Chin Na Form of the seven star praying mantis called Chyun Ji Doi Da - yes it´s a real high level partner form! With much Trapping, pressing, locks, sweeps, rolling, hitting etc …
Its quite long and full of new experiences for everyone, no matter how many partnersets you learned before! It´s pure fun and 200% Mantis! [/B]
Hello,
I was wondering if you could put the english name of this form? i have the same responce Tieh has 
~Pest
Hi All,
found this thread about Pai An that we discussed before.
Hi Sayloc,
The “drills” that you mention doesn’t sound like the usual Pai An pattern. It sounds more like San Shou or Shou Fa type of practice. It could be excerpt of a piece from a version of Pai An but from the info you provided it’s a bit vague to work with.
I have heard that HK 7 star (Yuen Man Kai?) has Pai An. WHF mentioned Yin Qing Po Shou which is Pai An. I have never seen those versions. I am not sure where your friend’s version came from so it is hard to guage.
Hi Jim,
My version came from GM Chiu. He called it Xiao Kaimen and Da Kaimen. (little and big open door). Xiao Kaimen is what gerenally known as Pai An. When I show this form, I usually break it down in to 3 drills. I find it easier to learn this way. As for secretive, I don’t think this form is like that at all. There are plenty of important lessons about PM in it, especially the greater Meihwa side of things, but they aren’t really secrets. It is a bit taxing if it is done with Sao Tang (attribute could be the secret edge, so…) The only thing that I could think of is how to change sides (that’s where Da Kaimen comes in) and linking other forms and shou fa with it. Knowing the changes and where to execute a finish is key. 7 hands is much the same way. I think 8 Step’s methodology first teaches the 7 hands and then the Pai An is a brilliant one. In fact, you could link 7 hands and Pai An together. That’s the beauty of Mantis I think. All things are connected. I think I have some clips of me and my student doing that somewhere. I could dig it up and made a MPG clip. But it will take a little time. Again, I will need someone’s help to host it. 
Warm regards
Robert (Mantis108)
Mantis108,
To my knowledge, many students of WHF learned Pai An (Pahk Awn in Cantonese). Definitely anyone certified by WHF to teach would have had it, not just Yuen Man Kai. I too have read in the WHF text that this drill is formally called Yen Ching Paw Sau although we have only referred to is as Pahk Awn.
Pahk Awn as I learned it has several stages of training. Stationary, unidirectional, bidirectional, fixed sequence, and finally free flowing. I think it is a great sensitivity and reflex drill.
YM
Hi Young Mantis,
Thank you for the input. I would love to learn the Seven Star version someday. I have so far only come across 8 steps and another version by Su Yuchang beside ours. It would be great to see the Seven Star version for comparison. BTW, I believe your Sifu have another drill called Black Tiger Steals The Hearts. I wonder if other 7 stars stylists have that too?
Warm regards
Mantis108
Re: Hi Young Mantis,
Originally posted by mantis108 BTW, I believe your Sifu have another drill called Black Tiger Steals The Hearts. I wonder if other 7 stars stylists have that too?
We have BTSH partner drill here in SF also. The techniques are simple, but the small details of their application are important.
N.
Robert, Jim has taught me the first part/version of Pai An and our version of BTSH. Love them both.
-N-: I think BTSH is simple as well but if yours has the uppercut that ours does…wow! on the power you can generate if your waist jing is in the groove.
One thing I’ve notice about PL material is that a lot of the drills utilize an outer hanging punch and Jim has shown another drill that switches at the OHP with Wai Gua Shou and so I’ve been playing with the other drills that have OHP and switching up betwixt them all. Get’s a little comical at times.
Sorry about the late reply. Busy with business year end… 
Hi Norman,
Thank for the input. Would you mind sharing your BTSH drill here? I would love to hear your insight on it. Thanks.
Hi Matt,
Would you mind sharing your version of BTSH also? I think I see the move(s) that you are referring to but I am not sure if we are working with the same drill.
I am working on sharing my version of the Pai An online. GBL has graciously agreed to host that for me (Thanks Jochen!)
About the Wai Gua Shou, is it the same one Kevin shared in the MQ? It is a very powerful and important drill indeed. It is amongst the most love-hated drills of my students. There is a variation of it in the Tao Hua San as well. There is an interseting footwork to go with it. Come to think of it, my version of Pai An seems to be working with the variations of the Wai Gua Shou with footwork as well.
Warm regards
Robert
simplest thing would be to post the video of me and Jim training this when he first taught it to me. I’ll check with him to make sure he’s ok with that first.
Robert, Matt,
The version of BTSH partner drill that I learned starts with partners A and B circling opposite each other for one complete circle at a distance outside the kicking range. Both end up right side forward.
A jumps in to close the distance.
B uses right punch as a stop punch.
A uses fung tung chui against the stop punch.
B uses left gwa sau to deflect A’s tung chui.
A uses left fung sau against B’s gwa, and right tau sum chui.
B uses right hand to redirect A’s tau sum chui.
A uses left fung sau against B’s redirect, and right bung chui.
B uses right bung chui against A’s bung chui, and bai moon tui.
A uses two hands cutting down on B’s kick while jumping backwards to escape.
B jumps forwards to maintain the distance.
Now the sequence repeats where A and B switch roles. A uses right stop punch, B uses fung tung chui, etc. The sequence then goes back and forth with A and B switching each time.
Matt, I can see using the uppercut/filing punch/cho chui in place of the attacking bung chui. That would be very nice.
So anyway, that’s our sequence. As far as the small details:
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The partners start at a distance where one or the other has to jump to close the gap and attack.
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The person not jumping stands his ground and uses stop punch to the face to disrupt the other person’s forward energy and steal the timing of the attack away from the other person.
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The attacker speeds up by half a timing to steal the attack back.
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The attacker uses fung tung chui with small frame for hands.
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The tung chui completes in mid jump.
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The tau sum chui follows yet half a timing sooner compared to the tung chui. Initiates at mid jump, and finishes before landing.
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The waist coordinates with the two punches in a sharp right left snap during the jump.
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Upon landing the right foot into horse stance, the body weight sharply and immediately rebounds in coordination with right waist snap to shoot out the bung chui.
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The rebounding footwork advances in a step slide.
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The bung chui lands before the footwork completes.
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Normally the person attacking with bung uses bai moon tui, but in this sequence the person countering with bung chui steals the attack away by using bai moon tui first.
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As the original attacker jumps to escape the kick, the other person also jumps to maintain the exact same distance and even close in.
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The escaping person hides his stop punch and applies it just before he lands, and as the pursuing person is about to land, so as to make the pursuer eat a punch.
The physical details are mainly of the relative timing of the movements, and of the movements relative one’s footwork, and to the other person’s actions. At another level, the drill is about the relative timing and transitions in intent and spirit. The 3 punches and a kick themselves are not much.
So that’s about it. I guess those are all my “secrets”
N.
oops, made a mistake. must have misunderstood a reference Jim made. it’s not BTSH. still might post the drill as I like it and the clip looks pretty good.
N,
I was utterly amazed reading your drill.
Well written too.
That is just like our drill called chuen zi(circle) duei da.
Nice to see different PM groups with similar things for their training.
Tainan Mantis,
Thank you for the kind words. I usually don’t post here much. My teacher always said, “less talk, more practice, makes one a better praying mantis.” And I certainly need the practice!
N.
Wow Norman,
Well, when it rains, it pours. Thanks!
It does sound very interesting. I agreed with Kevin that this method is similar to his. I am also very impressed with the clarity of your secret in written form. Really appreciate the open sharing. It means a lot, thank you.
Matt,
I am definitely looking forward for your clip. I hope Jim would give the okay.
Warm regards
Robert
Drills
First I like to introduce some of Robert Clips:
Drill
Well, for I´m not a native english speaker, sometimes I´m a little bit lame to catch the Idea of what you guys speakin ´bout.
But now I´m looking through: those drills of pai an we also train a lot. Beginning with au lou choi as partnerdrill, going on with the beginning of Tou Fa San Doi Da or like Kevin named it: outer hanging Gwa Drill.
Theres a drill with Cho Choi, Gwa (only the block) and Au Lou Choi and of Course many more.
Maybe we should all spend some money for a own Mantis Webspace, where to put the clips on … I sure would like to record some of mine if I could see some of yours!
And that one of Robert is fun! Good ending there! And as always: cool background!!