Here’s another great question from Tainan that merits its own thread:
<<<Tainan Mantis Wrote:
Doesn’t anybody want to talk about this set Pai an?
The only 2 man set that links the following six styles.
-8 step
-meihua
-taiji
-taiji Meihua
-HK 7*
-mainland 7*>>>
To begin with, Pai An (slap press or slap desk) has many variations. It could also be quite complex and demanding as in Pai An Sao Tang which is truely IMHO the real deal. It teaches shan Zhuan teng Nuo (dodging, turning, leaping and shifting) which is in my mind extremely important skill in Mantis fighting.
CCK TCPM’s version of Pai An is also known as Xiao Kaimen (little open door) which is very similar to most other PM styles’ Pai An. Furthermore there is an extra piece, Dai Kaimen (large open door). The Dai and the Xiao Kaimen can be practiced seperately or link together as one form. BTW, I believe the Dai Kaimen is not widely practiced in many PM styles today. I must clarify though that this linking as a form doesn’t mean that Pai An is a form per se. At least it is not in CCK TCPM (TCPM for short) tradition. They are generally regarded as seperate drills. There are also 2 ways of doing the last kicking section of the Pai An in TCPM. One way is to perform 2 low kicks which is relatively easy to master. The other way, Sao Tang, is done with 3 large kicks namely, tan tui (front snap kick), Sao Tang (floor sweeping kick) and bai lin tui (lotus kick). This section was once though lost to TCPM since my elders knew about it but didn’t remember how to do it. Thanks to Tainan, we found these kicks from his archives. [ thank you, my friend. You are the best! 
] So now in my club, the Pai An is basically known as Dai Xiao Kaimen with Sao Tang and is practiced like a full 2 men set.
The basic break down of the Pai An will show that there are about 3 different pieces of drills. The first part is a variation of Tainan’s Wei Gwa Shou (outer hanging punch). The second part is what I would call Zhan Nien (contact and stick). Finally, Sao Tang (Floor Sweeping) which is Shuan Zhuan Teng Nuo body method. Wei Gwa Shou also have a Fanche quality to it and Zhan nien is obviously Tanglang. Adding Sao Tang, I would think it is pretty much mantis skills in a nutshell; therefore, IMHO Pai An has tremedous value in the PM system.
Mantis108
PS If you are interested in founding more about Wei Gwa Shou, don’t forget to get the third issue of Mantis Quarterly.
Pai An
Robert, is this some kind of combination kicking? I remember doing a series of kicks and sweeps in Longfist. Say Lo Bung Da set in 7*is the closest thing I know that uses a series of various kicks together. Can you explain more on this subject.
V/r
Steve M.
Kick Combo
Hi Steve,
The last section of Pai An (Sao Tang) is indeed a kick combo. The counter side would do a different kick combo. The interesting thing is that both side can take turns in dirlling the 6 moves (3 for the advancing side and 3 for the retreating side) back and forth, over and over again. It is quite taxing even if it is only ten repetitions each round. So I would suggest to do five reps in the beginning and build up from there. This drill is bascially the Shan Zhuan Teng Nuo (SZTN). It is not just about kicking. After drilling these moves flawlessly, we can then add in or rather break down the drill into applications (ie takedowns and/or escape) where SZTN are fully applied. That means we can see the full extend of SZTN in close quarter combat. BTW, multiple partners can be introduced if the escape scenario is desired. Also ground grappling techniques can be drilled together with takedown. This would be more of an individual choice of course.
Pai An in TCPM can also be done with 2 low kicks instead of the 3 kicks combo. In that case, the timing of the hands and legs becomes more important. So classical PM drill such as Pai An is rather versatile and loaded with good techniques.
Regarding kick combos in PM, I think 7* has a 2 men form (Dui Da) that is called Continuous Kicks. I don’t have much info on that form except that it is listed in LWK’s “Shandong Tanglang Quanshu” book. From the moves that are listed, the kick combos are pretty interesting. I wish someone who has learned this form would share more on the kick combo.
Warm regards
Robert
Pai An w/ Tainan Mantis
Hi Mantis 108,
Thank you for this thread. Did you ever do Pai An with Shrfu Brazier? I learned a version from my Shrfu, (Pong Lai) John Scolaro. I have not been taught with the kicking yet, none the less, a powerful message! Do you know which Mantis style Kevin and John know?
xie xie
ys
Hi Yu Shan
Good to hear from you. I am glad you enjoy the thread. Thanks.
Kevin and I worked on the Pai An when he visited me last year. I showed him both Da and Xiao Kaimen. If I remember correctly, he learned the 8 step version of Pai An before. So I would presume John’s version would be from 8 Steps as well? We also worked on the Pai An Sao Tang together. I am not sure if he still has the video or not. As we worked on the Pai An, we came to realize that it has significant technical and perhaps even historical value. I believe that rekindled Kevin’s interest in this interseting drill/form. I think there is a version that starts with hook-grab-pluck (Su Yuchang taught this), which has no kick. As far as I have practiced and seen, the versions that have kicks all begin with 2 hands blocks for the advancing side and a round house palm or strike for the retreating side. I would love to see John’s version(s) as well.
Please send my regards to Shrfu John. I should touch base with him soon. Thank you.
Warm regards
Mantis108
"LWK SHANDONG TANGLANG QUANSHU BOOK?
Mantis 108, What is this book that you mentioned in your reply? "LWK Shandong Tanglang Quanshu Book? Thanks for breakdown on Pai An.
V/r
Steve M.
Yushan,
Your Paian version is from Li Kunshan and his Meihua PM.
Shrfu learned it from Li’s student Li Hongjie.
He is the elder Mantis master you met while here.
This version of Paian is not taught with kicks, although the 2 players can walk around while drilling it.
Most likely it also had kicks and Shrfu said it has kicks, but I am not sure on how Li Hongjie taught it or on how Li Kunshan taught it with or without kicks.
One of Master Shr’s students named Wu Changying, or James Wu taught PM in the states many years ago.
I had the chance to study with him also.
His fighting style was completely based on the Pai An you learned.
All his apps from his forms were applied out of Pai An.
Once I came to his class with a black eye after losing a fight and he grilled me on knowing too much kung fu. It was confusing my brain he said.
He was under the firm belief that understanding the apps and pai an were the only thing needed for fighting.
As for the 8 Step Pai An it is not well known in the states.
If you see it you will recognize it as Pai An though.
Tainan Mantis
Thank you for this information, Ill pass it on. I start newbies out with go low tsai then we go to pai an, which leads to wei gwa shou. In your & M108s view is this a good sequence? Our group really enjoys these drills. The wei gwa shou is a little ruff on the belly, so I cut this one a little shorter than the previous. Im getting old I guess.
Appreciate your article in the Mantis Quarterly.
I`m coming over in the fall, can we get together?
Thank you,
ys
YS,
Your sequence sounds ok.
If everyone likes it and they are getting the skills they need than that is what counts.
I am not sure if I got the right meaning from your post.
You are still getting hit in the belly from Wai Guashou?
I think you are too good to repeat this drill over and over.
After a while it becomes counterproductive to do repetitive drills with less experienced students.
In Master Shr’s case he showed me Wai Gua Shou(outer hanging hand) only once.
Then told me to practice it with the other students and count off 100 reps a day minimum.
But he didn’t drill it with us.
A friend of mine explained that most people here feel they will get worse by practicing with the inexperienced too much.
Later, I got his meaning. Master Shr has no use for the skill to do a repititious drill.
His skill is to find the emptyness in the opponent and take advantage of it.
So if he repeats the same thing over and over then he is not drilling this particular skill.
YS,
Get together?
I’ll be in Tampa in September to go house hunting.
Guess it`s true then, you are moving to the Tampa area. This is good news.
I`m practicing Pai An & Wei Guashou as a repetitive exercise. It was the way it was taught to me. Should I train new people this way at first? Seems to help it sink in. Now, should I practice PA & WG in the manner we did the drills you showed us back in May?
Thank you for the advice.
YS,
It should be taught as a repetitive exercise.
The way you learned is good.
teach it that way.
Later you should do it differently.
You can go from one punch to the other as I showed in the seminar so that each series is very short and focused on hitting “intent”.
After a while you find that you can just connect from one to the other with out stopping.
Tainan to Tampa???
Tainan,
Doen’t you want to move to ORLANDO instead. It’s just up the road from Tampa.
Besides, it’s not Fair that BOTH you and Pong Lai will be there.
One of you has got to move up here. 
What about 7* Pai An?
I thought WHF called it Yen Ching? I am hoping to confirm this.
Anyway, WHF seemed to think highly of this 2 man set he called Yen Ching as it is right after the first 5 free fighting techniques.
Hi JM,
Most of my family is in Tampa or nearby.
Pai An, Yan CHing
I do know that Lam Wing Kit, in his Kuen Po for CCM Tanglang and Taiji Tanglang gives both the names Pai An and Yan Ching for the set he outlines. Is this set as you know it?
Steve Cottrell
Lam’s book listed this form under both Ying Ching Pau Shou (Ying Ching’s counter hand) and Pai An. The moves there are pretty much the same as CCK TCPM’s Xiao Kaimen (little open door).
Mantis108
Little Open Way
Mantis 108,
WL has a form called “Little Open Gate.” I’m wondering if this could be similar to Xiao Kaimen? IMHO it seems that the Mantis of WL is along the lines of Mei Hua and TCPM. Any thoughts.
Maybe Tainan or B. Tunks, MantisSifuFW will know.
It would be interesting to know what type of Mantis was taught at the WL temple and how did it get there?
Thank yall,
JM
Joe Mantis
I thought the same thing about Little Open Gate and Xiao Kaimen. However, WL has some forms that have the same name as other styles of Mantis yet are completely different like Fan Che. Maybe under close examination like with Big Mantis and Beng Bu the similarities can be found.
The type of Mantis taught at the WL Temple was Jut Sow (Wrestling Hands) but it’s unknown how it got there in the first place.
Playing with the Pai An
Yu Shan,
I think your sequence sounds ok as well. Essentially, Tainan’s drills IMHO can be mixed together in any order. I also mix his drills with mine as well. They all compliment each other well. Tanglang is Tanglang after all. 
I start off my students with the go lo tsai as well. I paid extra attention to this drill making sure that they can go from outside and switch to inside and travel from right hand to left hand and then back and forth. When they can do it non stop, I will add in the footwork and othe techniques. Although go lo tsai is the most basic and simple, it is in my mind the best and most fundamental in Mantis skills. It trains the composition and rhythm of mantis hand. So I think you are right on the mark to start with go lo tsai.
Next, I will show Diao Da Feng Tzo. I usually call this Black Tiger steals heart because of the low bu chui. Together with the Gwan Luo Bu. We have the basic 5 punches - jab cross hook uppercut and back fist in Mantis styles.
After that I will show Wei Gua Shou and Beng Chui Bi Men Jiao
Finally, I will teach the Pai An. I don’t show it in the earlier stage because there are so much nuaunces that it’s hard for the student to appreciate the beauty of it while they try hard to remember the order of the form.
BTW, I feel that certian drills fit certain forms like a T. For example, the Diao Da (black tiger) fits Beng Bu perfectly. You call practically add it in at any ponit. So it’s a great hub to train the techniques in the beng bu.
Tainan mentioned deminishing return for the adepts to drill basic drills. I agreed with him as well. However, we can remedy that by adding in changes or finishes to spice it up. Like black tiger can be done with grabbing, slapping or choping instead of just the normal routine. It is also great to change the speed; hence, changes the rhythm of the drill. So you don’t get to be bored with it. At the right moment, you can add in a Chin Na move or 2, your students will be bewildered and think of you as a demi-god. LOL… Having said that everything is better when used in moderation. We don’t want to risk giving out too much secrets… lol… Seriously, information overload is not good nor healthy.
Just my take on the drills.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Pai An
Mantis108,
The version of Pai An that I have sounds like the one you describe in that it has the close range traps like the one in Lam Wing Kit’s book but also has the locks and kicking section you describe. It is from Yuan Man Kai.
We never called it Yan Ching Po Sao. Interesting that Lam Wing Kit apparently does.
I always learn a lot here.
Steve Cottrell