This thread is for those who are convinced that arm break techniques can be purposefully be done either standing or as part of a takedown.
Striking techniques can be done in a realistic and hard manner by the use of protection in sparring and by competing or sparring with minimal or no equipment.
Breaks and chokes can also be performed in a realistic and hard manner because the opponent can tap before the break or choke takes full effect.
Using standing arm breaks has to beg the question:
I mean, if you can’t actually break the guys arm in training then how do you know you can actually break someones arm?
honestly dude, I’m giving you :rolleyes: :rolleyes: out of :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: for this thread. Your eally shoulda just kept that thread going.
I agree with Knife. I only know of one standing arm break that kind of works. It is the one sakuraba used on Renzo, but even he couldn’t just break it. In a real fight, a person would get fish hooked or hit in the back of the head.
It is possible to do break an arm standing, but it is a low % technique.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;729311]How do you train yours in a realistic manner? [/QUOTE]
Because I often train at 100% and always compete at 100%.
I mean, if you can’t actually break the guys arm in training then how do you know you can actually break someones arm?
I know what happens when one doesnt’ tap in time. I’ve had my elbow blown, and my arm broken so I know from personal experience that the arm breaks. I’ve also seen it happen to others quite a few times.
Most of the ‘breaking’ techniques I have learned are incorporated into throws. So even if I don’t get the break, I still get the throw. I guess that’s the answer to your low percentage argument.
Thing is Dale, even a simple armbar is hard to get on an experienced grappler. Why should and other technique be any different? Not even BJJ can live up to some of you scrutiny, Bro.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;729316]Because I often train at 100% and always compete at 100%.
I know what happens when one doesnt’ tap in time. I’ve had my elbow blown, and my arm broken so I know from personal experience that the arm breaks. I’ve also seen it happen to others quite a few times.[/QUOTE]
so what’s your 100% compared to someone elses? that means nothing. IE: 100% of nothing still = nothing. Conversly, it still equals 100%
yep, tapping is smart, but at what point do people tap? 80% full wrench? 72%? 64?
I have personal experience too that contradicts your theory that standing arm breaks don’t happen, and to that, I say, ah well.
Besides, you train in a fixed way don’t you? I mean, you do the bjj and that’s about it right? What else do you train that opens more possibilities to improving your stand up, your clinch etc etc.
You seem to try and stick to mount or guard or getting to one of those two things as far as by what you talk about all the time. In which case, you’re not really looking for those other ways to do stuff.
btw, I’ve never been seriously hurt in training. Only in real fights, or beatings lol. or car and motorcycle crashes
I try tro recycle my training partners. the more time we spend injured, the less time we spend training. You can still go hard and only get a little bruised up as opposed to out for 3 weeks cause some overzealous idiot went haywire on the matt cause he has to “train realistically”. lol and :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Water Dragon;729332]Most of the ‘breaking’ techniques I have learned are incorporated into throws. So even if I don’t get the break, I still get the throw. I guess that’s the answer to your low percentage argument.[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with that. Throws are definitely high percentage and can be practiced and at 100. Seems like a great way to do it.
even a simple armbar is hard to get on an experienced grappler. Why should and other technique be any different?
Most BJJ or sub grappling tourneys I have been to or seen usually have armbars happening quite often.
However, in all my years of doing and watching these tourneys, I think I have only seen one standing arm break done .
My experience leads me to believe they are different.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;729334]I have personal experience too that contradicts your theory that standing arm breaks don’t happen, and to that, I say, ah well.[/QUOTE]
This is true. If you have broken people’s arms with these techniques, I guess I can’t argue against that. I guess your case, these breaks do work.
Besides, you train in a fixed way don’t you? I mean, you do the bjj and that’s about it right? What else do you train that opens more possibilities to improving your stand up, your clinch etc etc.
My goal is to be as well rounded as possible given time contraints and keeping injuries at a minimum. To that end, I train wrestling, weapons (mainly stick and knife), boxing and Muay Thai.
You seem to try and stick to mount or guard or getting to one of those two things as far as by what you talk about all the time. In which case, you’re not really looking for those other ways to do stuff.
Maybe I’m wrong about this, but I think I talk about mount and guard when the subject is groundfighting.
I boxed Golden Gloves for a while, competed in kickboxing here and fought Muay Thai rules in Japan in my 20’s. I also did a couple of my MMA matches with the specific goal of only doing standup. Additionally, I am constantly working on new and different things for knife work… some involve striking, some involve clinch work and some things on the ground.
Ground fighting has been a pretty big focus for the last 12 years because that was the area where I had the least experience. I believe good standup is just as important as being proficient on the ground, although the ground is what has saved my a$$ on a number of occasions.
I try tro recycle my training partners. the more time we spend injured, the less time we spend training. You can still go hard and only get a little bruised up as opposed to out for 3 weeks cause some overzealous idiot went haywire on the matt cause he has to “train realistically”. lol and :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
You are right about that. It is sometimes hard to balance realism with injury potential.
Properly structured push hands allows for this. I’m just starting to get the hang of it. Really quite a beginer when it comes to push hands but it’s 100% clear that arm breaks can be trained just fine in that context. I can relate how my teacher demo’s them.
He has on numerous occasions, straightened my arm out to where the elbow was locked and then smacked my arm behind the elbow with his free hand just hard enough to make me go “oh ****e!” and have an aching sore elbow joint for the next day or two. He has also locked me up at the shoulder hard enough to make me beg for mercy and that was sore too for the next couple days. HE knows because that’s how he learned the stuff and he has broken arms with the stuff in various challenges. In the past, he even broke some of his students arms when they tried to come at him “100%”. He said that he used to be afraid his “blade would get dull” if he didn’t test certain techniques periodically. He’s mellowed (somewhat) with age and now no longer feels it necessary to injure people to prove his points.
^agreed, if I can’t feed a lock or hold from sticky hands then I know I can’t use it. The sensitivity training is the missing link and is what guys like Knifefighter never see and don’t comprehend. This is what allows you to manipulate your opponent’s limbs into the desired alignments, and this is what makes TCMA applications work. Granted, a disappointingly large number of CMA schools seem to have lost this aspect of their training, which is a large factor in why so many people can’t fight with their Kung Fu.
How do you train a neck crank realistically without causing a C2 fracture? How do you train ankle and knee locks realistically without destroying the joints? This is a real non question. You train the entry and the hold, which are the important parts anyway, and then you develop explosive short power in your arms.
[QUOTE=Ben Gash;729411]
How do you train a neck crank realistically without causing a C2 fracture? How do you train ankle and knee locks realistically without destroying the joints? This is a real non question. You train the entry and the hold, which are the important parts anyway, and then you develop explosive short power in your arms.[/QUOTE]
In BJJ, sub grappling, and MMA, those things are trained full force and the opponent taps out when he needs to.
I think that’s where the difference may be. Correct me if I’m wrong but in sub grappling you apply the break slow enough to give the guy a chance to tap, but in my experience to get the elbow dislocated from a standing position it has to be very ballistic along with the other fellow being relatively immobile.
[QUOTE=rogue;729447]I think that’s where the difference may be. Correct me if I’m wrong but in sub grappling you apply the break slow enough to give the guy a chance to tap, but in my experience to get the elbow dislocated from a standing position it has to be very ballistic along with the other fellow being relatively immobile.[/QUOTE]
I varies, depending on the level of one’s opponent relative to you, how hard you are going, whether it is training or competition, how much control you have over your opponent, how advanced the participants are, etc.
Sometimes you only have a fraction of a second to tap. Knowing when to tap is an important skill and is one that is developed to a high degree over the years.
I think its short sighted to think that all arm breaks take place when both people are grappling. There are ways to parry or redirect a persons arms as they strike that when coupled with another movement can pop the elbow in a fraction of a second. Just like most striking, its not the goal, you just keep flowing and if you dont get the arm break, you just treat is as a parry/slip. Then work the explosive power on a wooden dummy arm..if you get to where you can really wrench on a baseball bat with your arm, you have a pretty good chance of throwing that technique in a dangerous way. I dont see why more people dont think of this training methodology, its not exactly new.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;729528]I think its short sighted to think that all arm breaks take place when both people are grappling. There are ways to parry or redirect a persons arms as they strike that when coupled with another movement can pop the elbow in a fraction of a second. Just like most striking, its not the goal, you just keep flowing and if you dont get the arm break, you just treat is as a parry/slip. Then work the explosive power on a wooden dummy arm..if you get to where you can really wrench on a baseball bat with your arm, you have a pretty good chance of throwing that technique in a dangerous way. I dont see why more people dont think of this training methodology, its not exactly new.[/QUOTE]
Coming from a long-time FMA background where these types of breaks are supposedly an integral part of the methodology, I can tell you I have never seen anyone pull one off against a resisting opponent.
BTW, I’m still waiting to find out who these 30 year guys are, what their backgrounds consist of, and how our opinions differ.
Notice I didnt say that they are easy, just that they can happen…I know FMA has similar techniques..the idea though is not to try and break, but to use it to setup positional dominance, and then if it happens to break something as you are doing so, you just have a bonus. Personally I would more count on an elbow dislocation happening than a break though, but same idea, it can happen.
Your opinions differ because you have different backgrounds and because you focus on different training for long periods of time I would guess..some things you guys are eye to eye on, and some things you say are just your view, but definately not mine or theirs, but I guess if you are ever out here and want to work out, I could probably arrange it. They are varied, hung gar guys, with BJJ, golden gloves, boxing, and wrestling backgrounds as well, but all of them are in their 30+ years in hung ga, and can make it work just fine. We work at least an hour or more with a resisting partner in drills and sparring every other day, and have always done so, so I guess its not the typical kung fu environment you picture. A lot more like a boxing gym.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;729548]Notice I didnt say that they are easy, just that they can happen…I know FMA has similar techniques..the idea though is not to try and break, but to use it to setup positional dominance, and then if it happens to break something as you are doing so, you just have a bonus. Personally I would more count on an elbow dislocation happening than a break though, but same idea, it can happen.
Your opinions differ because you have different backgrounds and because you focus on different training for long periods of time I would guess..some things you guys are eye to eye on, and some things you say are just your view, but definately not mine or theirs, but I guess if you are ever out here and want to work out, I could probably arrange it. They are varied, hung gar guys, with BJJ, golden gloves, boxing, and wrestling backgrounds as well, but all of them are in their 30+ years in hung ga, and can make it work just fine. We work at least an hour or more with a resisting partner in drills and sparring every other day, and have always done so, so I guess its not the typical kung fu environment you picture. A lot more like a boxing gym.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you could post some video of your sparring sessions, so I could get a better idea.
He said that he used to be afraid his “blade would get dull” if he didn’t test certain techniques periodically. He’s mellowed (somewhat) with age and now no longer feels it necessary to injure people to prove his points.