Sparring

A great thread on the place of sparring in martial arts practice can be found on the xingyi page of Tim Cartmell’s Shen Wu discussion board (www.shenwu.com/discus). I’ve copied part of Mr. Cartmell’s response below:

"This is a very interesting topic, the sparring vs. too deadly to spar dichotomy. My students also get into this discussion with practitioners of other arts that believe they are too lethal to spar. I suppose their is no ‘answer’ short of no holds barred death matches, but it is important to look at the evidence we do have so that students can make an informed decision, especially students that want to prepare themselves for a real and violent confrontation.

I’ll preface my comments by saying I have trained all different ways. I’ve studied traditional styles of martial arts in which all techniques were supposed to be potentially lethal, and which forbade sparring, as well as traditional arts which allowed contact sparring. I’ve also practiced several combat ‘sports.’

One of the most, if not the most important aspect of success in a fight is mindset, next is experience, then physicality, finally specific technique. Without the will to fight, the greatest fighter in the world will lose to the most mediocre fighter. This is a common sense observation. It is extremely difficult (although probably not impossible) to develop a fighting mindset without some experience approximating a real fight. Like the boxers say, everyone has a plan until they get hit. If you have never been hit hard, crushed under someone’s weight or been on the receiving end of a painful and unrelenting attack, how do you know how you will react? You may imagine you will respond appropriately and fight back, but you will never know for sure. Sparring will never be as intense as a real fight, but it is the closest approximation you will find within the bounds of relative safety (although you will be injured on occasion, it’s an inevitability of learning to fight).

Getting hit, strangled and thrown hard by a determined and resisting opponent will condition your mind and body for the realities of a fight. Taking out your opponent with the initial attack is obviously the ultimate goal of a fight (and learning how to sucker punch is something I believe should be practiced often), but the reality is one punch knockouts almost never occur. When they do, the fighter doing the knocking out is usually always much bigger and stronger than his opponent. Despite the popular ‘deadly martial arts’ idea that a fight will be over in seconds with the opponent lying unconscious and broken on the floor, fights often go on for minutes, with both fighters injured as third parties pull the fighters apart.

Contact sparring and grappling are also a ‘laboratory’ for you to experiment with which techniques YOU can actually apply against a resisting opponent. Just because your teacher or classmates can smash bones with a blow doesn’t mean you necessarily can. You will never know what you can really do unless you have really done it. You must also practice sparring in all ranges and situations (striking and wrestling both standing and on the ground).

It is not that the techniques in most martial arts won’t work, all legitimate styles have potentially useful techniques. The problem is the method of training. Anyone can make a technique work against a non-resisting partner, and, of course, that is how techniques are learned. The actual execution of a technique is the easy part. The hard part is the set up and entry. The method of learning how to successfully set up and enter a technique for real cannot be learned without a non-cooperative, fully resisting partner. Because that is the situation you will be in in a real fight. In a real fight, your opponent will be doing everything he can to stop you from applying your techniques. If your method doesn’t take this into account, it is not realistic. The best fighters in the world use relatively simple techniques, most often the same techniques they learned during their first few months of training. The reason they can actually apply these techniques is that they have learned to set them up against trained, resisting opponents. They have confidence because they have been successful for real.

Physicality is also extremely important in a fight. Size and strength do matter, and, especially if you are smaller than your opponent, superior endurance could save your life. Besides regular conditioning exercises for power and endurance, sparring practice will teach you how to conserve your energy and expend it when it will have the greatest effect. When the adrenaline is pumping, it is very important not to use up all your energy to no effect. Anyone who has ever been in a combat sporting event can tell you that whoever gasses first loses, no matter his or her level of skill.

Another place to look for answers is with men who have a great amount of experience in real fights (street fights). If you read the literature, men like Peyton Quinn and Geoff Thompson (who worked as bouncers in rough places, and who had the ‘benefit’ of hundreds of real fights) assert that contact sparring and grappling are absolutely essential to preparing martial artists for real fights. Geoff Thompson is especially interesting in that he has liscences to teach over a dozen Asian martial arts. But what he advocates practicing for real fighting ability is Western boxing (combat sport), wrestling (combat sport) and Judo (combat sport). The main focus of training in all three is non-cooperative free sparring.

In my own experience, I feel I developed more practical fighting ability from a year of Xing Yi Quan training in Taiwan (we sparred full contact on a regular basis) than years of training in other styles without non-cooperative sparring. Do I believe Xing Yi Quan is technically so superior to the other styles I studied? No, what made the difference was the method (we sparred).

Finally. I’ll leave you with a real world example. Meynard is passionate about this subject because of his background in the martial arts. He spent years studying a ‘traditional’ martial art (with an excellent teacher) that did not allow sparring practice because of the ‘deadly’ nature of their techniques. When he first came to study with me we could basically strike, throw and submit him at will (sorry Meynard, the truth hurts sometimes). He has practiced very hard the last few years, and is now one of the best fighters in my school. He’s done well in combat sporting events (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and submissions grappling) as well as a street fight he got into with a gang member a few months ago (two leg kicks and a Pi Quan knocked the guy down. He had had enough and Meynard let him get up and limp away. Like Water Dragon said above, this is how most real fights end up, no reason to kill anybody).

I want to make it clear to my friends that posted above that I respect different methods of training. There is something to be learned from all drills, ancient and modern. What’s important is to be honest about why you practice martial arts in the first place (for example, people who practice for health or recreationally don’t need to spar) stay open minded and look at all different methods of training to see what works for you."

Yep

I can’t wait to see how all the Chi-Huggers respond to that brilliant post.

Like Water Dragon said above, this is how most real fights end up, no reason to kill anybody

I got acknowledged by Tim Cartmell!!!
I got acknowledged by Tim Cartmell!!!
I got acknowledged by Tim Cartmell!!!
I got acknowledged by Tim Cartmell!!!
I got acknowledged by Tim Cartmell!!!

Now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Must be my Qi!!!

chii-Huggers” damm a chi hugger sounds like fighting words. :slight_smile:

I think if you view fighting in the context of h2h and many of the sport arenas of today. Then many of the things he says makes sense.

If you view fighting in the context of some one attacking you with a gun, knife, gang, what ever, then I think there may be a false confidence built up though this type of thinking.

The type of confidence that I’m talking about is the type where one has had “who worked as bouncers in rough places, and who had the ‘benefit’ of hundreds of real fights”

Real fights, against who? people who where drunk. Lower skill then they. Dose this count? They where ready, it’s their job so in a way they have already thrown the fist blow.

i think this is very differnt from being attacked.

The opposite might be the person who never fights or even fought, and escapes an encounter by throwing some dog **** at the attackers face after being knocked down, would you do it, would you even think about it.

Probably not, why? Because you know how to fight, your mind and body have been conditioned to view and react to things in a certain way.

I don’t know about training to fight, I do know about training to acquire skills reflected in my art.

is this differnt from training to fight?

I think once acquired it’s important to test your understanding and usage against as many different types of people as possible. The question is “real skills”

these are gen comments directed towards the topic and none here. i come from a back ground of one who trained to fight and did with many differnt types of people and arts as a yonger man. luckly the people that i ran into had no real skill in the sense that we talk of here in the neji arts or some teachers that i have met.
:slight_smile:

A valid point, David, and one I think Cartmell tries to address in his last paragraph (i.e., be clear on what you’re training for: self-defense, fighting, health, whatever).

I’m interested in something else you bring up: that what you train for conditions the response you will have to a real-life violent attack. So if you train in the manner of Cartmell or one of the people he mentions, Geoff Thompson, you will respond in a particular matter that might limit your flexibility of response. That is, you’ll meet an all-out violent assault with equal or greater rapid violence. It’s the “mindset”.

The problem is that without at least a modicum of conditioned reflex you will probably be taken down by the assault.

I like Cartmell’s response–that’s why I quoted it. I don’t know anything about his “real-life” “streetfighting” experience away from the mat though. Maybe if one of his students is on this board they could talk about that.

very clear and to the point. :slight_smile:

“mindset”

that is a good topic.

Bambo Leaf

when you say "If you view fighting in the context of some one attacking you with a gun, knife, gang, what ever, then I think there may be a false confidence built up though this type of thinking. " do you mean the ‘sparring as close as possible to realistic fighting’ (as Tim suggests) builds up false confidence?

Or do you mean the martial artist who gets trained in leathal techniques but never is able to spar has false confidence?

(Chi-Hugger is only ‘fighting words’ if you’re a Chi-Hugger…
in which case, you wouldn’t fight; you’d just get beat up
while you swirl your chi).

SG I’m not speaking for BL here, but I think false confidence could be a trap either way . . . somebody with a lot of sparring and sport-fighting experience entering into a conflict situation maybe not as wary or ready for the nasty boy coming from behind to help his buddy out . . . and for the guy training in the Thousand Secret Techniques of the Old Fighting Nuns of Wudangshan.

Of course anybody can be caught by surprise and shat upon. Tim Cartmell’s post didn’t discount the priority of technique so much as put it in its proper (to him) order of priority relative to “mindset,” conditioning, experience and sparring.

What I really liked about his post though is that Cartmell emphasizes the martial arts student being clear (and honest with themselves) about what their goal in training is, then being able to make an “informed choice” about what the teacher offers. This in turn depends on the teacher being straightforward about training practices and their own experience. It sure seems to me like that’s the way Cartmell teaches.

I’d be interested in hearing more from teachers or students about WHEN students are introduced to sparring. I think I’ve read on this board where the Shen Wu school invites newbies to at least roll a little right from the first practice. What about other schools? I guess if I taught (I don’t) I’d want to put the new student through a number of practices (maybe the first month or so) to ensure some conditioning, some movement skill, some understanding of what goes on during practice–and allow the teacher to gauge the new student’s attitude and ability level during that time to determine when they’re ready for sparring. Not wait 10 years, not even a year, but maybe a month or two. I guess I’d be a little concerned about the possibility of some temperamental a$$hole going off half-****ed the first time he sparred.

Damm chi huggers, :slight_smile:

You talk of sparring and realistic fighting. I would say it depends on your level of involvement and weather this is your job. As in pro boxing, or any type of competition at this level..

all of these realistic events require preparation for the event. I.e. building a skill set that will allow you to survive in a ring with a known opponent using known tech. it then becomes a matter of conditioning and skill for that event.

This training should have you at peak performance just in time for the event. Yes mind set is key. Because you are a fighter, your no longer thinking in terms of self defense or another way of reacting. You fight useing your body and mind.

Lethal techniques, again look at this thinking. A pen at your desk or high heel shoes can be used as a lethal technique. Your still thinking in terms of man to man H2H.

Recently a person was killed H2H with some one else at a hockey game, this is what I’m talking about. The guy that killed him outweighed him by 100lb. He fought this guy they both lost. He died and the other will probably go to jail. Mindset, options, fighting?

In most of these matches or realistic fighting seems to me to build a mindset that may not allow the option of doing or choosing other actions.

Learning to use your style/method/concept against others not from your school is important to your development to a point.

I can see trouble form what I’m about to write. :frowning:

A lot of this depends if your art is concept based or tech. based. Much of what I read with many people in the other forums seems to be tech. based.

dose your art work againts the body or the mind!

If you look at what the arts that are called internal are about, for me they are more of a concept that once developed can be used in many different ways. This is why I feel the IMA arts are very hard to really lean and develop. I am not saying better, but very much different approach.

The trouble that I see is for many really not being able to demonstrate the concepts and thinking that they can.

I don’t know if this answered your question but it how I view things.

:wink:

Bamboo Leaf,
Full contact, intense sparring is a necesary part of training. No one is saying that is the only, or even most important part. I personally place a higher importance level in freestyle Tui Shou than sparring or specific technique practice.

>“A lot of this depends if your art is concept based or tech. based”<

Concepts and ideas work for me, and are the focus of how I train others…techniques are those neat little things that just happen when the body’s movement is tactically sound.

related to the shenwu post… Water Dragon:

WD,

On that same thread you mentioned that the 5 elements/punches weren’t really/only punches (if I remember correctly). Could you explain, maybe in a new thread?

TIA

-crumble

Sorry Crumble,
I’m not at liberty to say.

Closed-door kung fu training is SUPPOSED to have constant sparring.

My style, Seng Men, has a very structured and rigorous progression of steps toward free sparring. By mastering the ascension, sparring becomes the natural conclusion of the training.

I think that if one’s sifu hasn’t experienced that upward progression of skill building toward free sparring, there’s no way he’s going to show it to students unless he takes his lumps fighting all sorts of folks.

Traditional kung fu styles try to AVOID the lumptaking by preparing the student step by step.

Okay then, but…

We have ways of making you talk, Mwa ha ha!

-c

bamboo_ leaf,

you said a lot but you never answered my question:

Did you mean the ‘sparring as close as possible to realistic fighting’ (as Tim suggests) builds up false confidence…

or did you mean the martial artist who gets trained in leathal techniques but never spars has false confidence?

I would say both. :slight_smile:

One has confidence based on false assumptions, the other has confidence based on false skills.

I think real CMA should teach and build skill sets that allow the mind to know what to do, and a body with the skill to act.

Confidence, mmm what dose this really mean. Either you act or you don’t. it’s not a thinking process…

A small story you probably heard it before:

There was a master of the tea ceremony. Somehow he angered a samurai. The samurai told him that he would kill him the next day. Not knowing what to do he went to his friend.
His friend told him to hold his sword with the same mind that he used pore tea.

They met the next day. They both drew their swords the samurai was unable to kill the tea master.
His mind intent was to strong and he had no fear of death.
The samurai had no opening. :wink:

There is more to this story but it kind of speaks to where I’m am at now in my own thinking.

In the TC classics it speaks of training the listening skills, after a while free hand or not free hand it’s the same the skill acquired works either way.

These are my views at this time. every thing that people have written of here I did at one time or another.

Maybe I’m out of step but this is where I’m at now. :slight_smile:

I don’t know if this answard your question.
but i thank you and all the rest even if we don’t agree or seem to be againts each other it has really made me think, and rexamine my views. :slight_smile:

luck in training

T’ai chi is training you to not need to think in terms of sparring or what if’s. It is training your body, not your mind, and the mind is difficult for Americans especially to let go of. Sparring and “what if’s” are in many situation mental games more then physical, and although we enact them physically, the intent behind each of our movements is a mental one. He is coming at me with a left jab, I need to do so and so and such and such.

You are working towards your body knowing where it needs to be and how it needs to be as a natural movement. I believe this is what bamboo_leaf is approaching in his comments.

Something to point out is in truth you can achieve a high degree of skill through both means, and often several different approaches can bring you to a similar desired goal.

  • Nexus

crumble

There are all kinds if throws and chin-na located inside xingyi elements.

for example

Pi quan good sweeps and elbow/shoulder chin-na.
Zuan" good shoulder throws plus arm and shoulder chin-na
Beng not a whole lot of throws and chin-ma inside, but many graet ways to clear and strike.
Pao has some good hip throws and shoulder/arm chin-na/some sweeps too
Heng is loaded with chin-na, some sweeps just about everything hence the name earth.

Also

Also, sparring is everthing…

yet, nothing.

spanky