Sparring

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
21

Aewsome

Great post. But I still stand behing my One Shot Kill. It’s actually yhe third shot it most cases, but its the one delievered to finish.

Bang, bang, Boooom. One shot kill. I also think fights should be concluded quickly. Actually, as my master always drills, one should not fight, just beat the $hit out of someone. Point, if you are fighting (ie, resistance, clashing) you will have a hell of a time against the bigger man.

Other then that, I agree with that gentleman 100%. Must train as real as possible as often as possible, if combat is a priority.

22

Bambo Leaf

nope.. that’s still a non-answer.

here, try this one:

you HAVE to fight A or B… which would you rather get into
an all out brawl with:

a. a guy who has trained in Bagua and Tai Ji for 3 years
sparring, full contact 3 times a week.

b. a guy who has trained in Bagua and Tai Ji for 3 years
but never sparred because he didn’t think he needed
to since he practices the forms twice a day.

would you rather fight A or B?

and why.

23

The example of IMA training is faulty to begin with, as is your idea of fighting.

It actually might be easier to fight with some one who trains full contact 3 times a week.

you would know what to expect the question then becomes what is your own level of fighting.

Assuming you view fighting which it looks like you do in the context of a ring. I don’t share this view.

Given the example of IMA practicing the forms 2 times a day.

If the practice is correct practice this person might be harder to deal with. You wouldn’t know what to expect they wouldn’t know what to do. Anything could happen.

They might pick up a brick and use brick fu with what they do anything is possible.

This is my answer. :slight_smile:

24

Bamboozle Leaf,

what is my view of fighting. (and what ring?)

then tell me your view of fighting.

and when you say "The example of IMA training is faulty… "
what example of training? How is it faulty?

I’m begining to see why you viewed my term Chi-Hugger
as offensive.

25

If one wants to be a MARTIAL artists, eventually, no matter their inner fears or whatever, they have to put the gear on and go at it, not points, not boxing, full on control the other guy and then put him down.

I’ve been studying, learning, refining since I was 4, it’s always been there, but I couldn’t imagine training for 5 years and never testing: Why not? How else do you know if it works, because sifu said so? A good teacher would not want that kind of student, unless they just kept handing over the checks each month of coarse.

One has to question everything, even a technique pulled off well. How could it be better? How can it be refined? That’s how the old men beat young men like myself. Experience! Experience and further refinemnt.

There really is no other way. For me, I’d like to fight guy B. I love guys who have been doing forms for 15 years and claim systems. They never seem to want to play, always perform. If he bends down to pick anything up, its the last thing he’ll do well that day. A weapon not used properly will be used against its wielder.

26

“Bamboozle Leaf,”

I think you misspelled it. :slight_smile:

As for your other questions go to some one who can really do IMA and ask for some training.

EvolutionFist

I started my training before you where born. Saying that you began training at 4. What is this supposed to mean?

Again it’s okay, you too have your views. These are mine.

27

Sparring

My opinion is if a internal practitioner just practice froms and two man drills with no feestyle full -contact sparring. Their never established a real practical form of combat.

Any Martial Art practitioner can practice rehash forms and combat drills, but to utilize these skills in sparring will not be easy if a person don’t have unrehash freefighting experience.

I have seen many Martial Artist who were good at forms and rehash self defense drills. They had good reaction time and timing when ever they perform their techniques. Why" because it was rehash, any time a person practice a form or technique in a repetittive manner, timing will automatically come. It will happen naturally. nothing big to write home about, because the practitioner knows what technique is coming.

Free style sparring is the best way to develop unrehash reflex and timing, not a thinking one.(Forms and two man combat drills) sparring is the best way, because a person is doing it for real. They have a person striking back at them. So they are under pressure to pay attention and not let their mind wander.

Bottom line is the best rehash Martial Art fighter does not always win, but the best prepared fighter usually does.

Internal practitioners only cheat themself, if they don’t practice sparring, freefighting can open up new vistas, allow a martial art practitioner freedom to explore and creative new methods and combine them with already established techniques for a better , more practical form of combat.

Knowledge and experience that a rehash internal practitioner will never attain, because they don’t have real experience and didn’t undergo Full Contact sparring. Try fighting a boxer that trains in the ring Full contact unrehash everyday in the gym. And All you practice is forms and rehash combat drills. I put my money down the boxer will win. Because the rehash fighter will not have the right mindset or experrience. There is a big world of difference in rehash fighting and unrehash sparring.

Bottom line is people that practice the internal styles need to get real with themself. You never reach high level skills just practicing rehash fighting. sparring is more then just kicking and striking, sparring is a art form and method to help a person to explore himself. Its is not base on practicing rehash techniques to look good for a mass audience, as so many so called internal style practitioners are today.

sparring have no mass audience appeal with the fake internal practitioners, because they mindset is timid and many don’t want to work hard for true genuine Kung fu skills." All talk and no real skills to show for.

Most so called internal practitioner today are in very poor physical condition, but they are always talking about Chi and how they can utilize Chi in a fight. What a joke these people are.

My point is, a person can say that they can utilize Chi and look bad physical and most of the time get a way with the bull$hit. Why? Because people like to play dump or fool theyself sometimes. Thats just human nature, people like to have belief in foolish things and even support things that are no true some times.

But in sparring a person have to prove to their opponent they have attain fighting skills. There is no way to fake that , if a person have true shills in the martial arts it will show in sparring. If not then need I say more…
:frowning:

Peace practice and live long.

28

nothing like an arse whuppin

no matter what level you are at, make it a point to get mashed out on the regular and it will do wonders for your development

if no then you will remain stagnant

there is no two ways about it

burn dem

29

There is nothing like getting the bag beat out of you. Period.
Any style, all styles under any circumstance. The survival mechanisms built within your organism will dictate to the mind where you should move in order not to get squashed in the same manner as a previous painful encounter. This is basic subconcious bio-feedback.

About five years ago I took a nice roundhouse kick to the “floating ribs” I collapsed in a heap and breathing hurt for about 2 weeks. This guy ( a junior I took for granted) , during a “light” sparring session nearly put my ribs through my spine.

I’ll never go “light” on defense ever again and I’ve sure as hell have never been nailed with that technique since. That’s real learning.

I also learned that this guy (ex-boxer) liked to fake a lead left and deliver the short (in TKD a 45 degree kick under my lead elbow) snappy kick to the ribs. I’d spar him there after by watching his hips instead of looking at his shoulders.

30

Bamboo_leaf, my comments were not directed at you, but the board in general. In fact, I do not know what your point of view is, other then that you have been training longer than myself.

I brought up the age I began, 4, to establish that my training has changed, in regard to style, as well as its focus, from tournament sparring to back street survival.

I am very comfortable with my training and myself – I do stand by my comments though, one has to fight. One can not become a MARTIAL artists, simply doing form.

I read above that timing will be developed, I disagree, not real timing. You have nothing to time against when doing forms, its all you, there is no exterior force, only what in your head.

Forms are nice, healthy, a good source of material. But reading the bible and living a Christian life are two different things. Doing forms, and fighting, equally different.

31

Bambo Leaf

when you replied “As for your other questions go to some one who can really do IMA and ask for some training”

I was confused. I re-read the thread and still, to me, it was you who stated my view of fighting is faulty… and it was you who said the training example was incorrect… that’s why I simply
asked YOU to expound on your comments.

I do study with someone who can ‘really do IMA’ (Tim Cartmell has
been my teacher for the last 3 or 4 years)… but that doesn’t help me understand why you think my idea of fighting is flawed
(since you seem to know, I’m very interested in hearing what
my flawed view of fighting is).

32

OOOHHH OOOHHH can I take this one?

YOUR ATITUDE!!!

33

ED,

what does that misspelling have to do with our discussion?

34

HA HA figured you like that one, do you not see the connection?
think again ATITUDE !!!

35

Hi Sum Guy / evolution fist,
This is good we can have a dialog.

Wrote a lot but decided it wasn’t worth it. But then decided to post it anyway.

SG,
Your example of some one training IMA seemed to imply just doing the from was s/he was doing IMA. i thought this was wrong. Meeting the requirements of really doing the from is often very difficult if you can really do it, will impart some skill.

EF,

All reality takes place in the head, real or imagined. To perceive what is happening and act in accordance with it. Not in accordance with a perception built on ideas of what reality is. I used “brick fu” to illustrate the freedom of an idea independent of a preconceived idea. You took it the wrong way.

Sparring mmm, let me give you an example of what I’m talking about.
A young leaf was on a bus, the style that he used to play was white crane. Something happened on the bus between leaf and some one else. He tried to get this person to get off the bus in order to bring the WC long arm into play. The person refused and they ended up trading blows there before the bus driver kicked leaf off the bus.

Now instead of looking at what was there, the leaf was looking at it in the context of sparring match and trying to use his style to it’s best advantage. He could have used a book or many other things but his mind was filled with fighting in the manor of what he did on a regular basis’s in the kf gym.

I pasted this from another tread I think it express some key points.

By boy analog,

“Our teacher is quite adamant that technique is less important than power and sensitivity. He’s far and away the best martial artist I’ve ever seen, but he can be a little hard to understand at times. I think that this is a small price to pay.

The guy who was attacked (his name is Patrick) has a pretty solid background in Wing Chun. I too used to train in Wing Chun, though I didn’t advance as far as Patrick.

In fact, most of the people here seem to have done something else before coming to our school. This is probably a mixed blessing. On the positive side of the ledger, having a background in a more “obvious” style will attune you to exploring the martial applications of our training, as well as having a broader appreciation of the kinds of techniques that one might have to face. On the negative side, it can sometimes block your understanding if you try to comprehend an internal style within the framework of an external style.” END/

" can sometimes block your understanding if you try to comprehend an internal style within the framework of an external style"

very nice, very much agree with this statment.

All of the IMA arts that I have read about and those people that I have met had real skills. They can be applied to sparring but where not developed though sparring.

I don’t know if this really explains my views or not. :slight_smile:

36

Timing

Evolution Fist)I read above that timing will be developed, I disagree, not real timing. You have nothing to time against when doing forms, its all you, there is no exterior force, only what in your head.

BT) Maybe you need to practice your forms to Music during your workout sometimes and you will see what I mean. Practicing your forms to music develop timing and even rhythm. A person have to have they timing down to stay with the beat of the music.

Not only is practicing to music develop some timing but it will also give a practitioner rhythm and beat that they need.

Even if a practitioner just practice their forms with out music they still will develop timing. If you have a friend time you with a watch, and you are trying to finish your form at a certain time, is that not timing.

Here is a example:You are a BaGuaZhang competitor at a internal martial art tournament and you have only one mintue and 1/2 to conclude your form. If you don’t have your timing down in their form, there is no way that you finish your form in time, You may even go over time, because your form timing is off. So I stand by my opinion practicing forms can develop timing in my viewpoint.

But when it comes down to freefighting, I stand by my first statement:

Free style sparring is the best way to develop unrehash reflex and timing, not a thinking one.(Forms and two man combat drills) sparring is the best way, because a person is doing it for real. They have a person striking back at them. So they are under pressure to pay attention and not let their mind wander.

Bottom line is people develop timing everyday, because timing is a part of life.

Peace practice and live long.
:slight_smile:

37

“Bottom line is people develop timing everyday, because timing is a part of life.”

That is the pearl of wisdom from this thread. Excellent!

38

Evolution fist,

[I read above that timing will be developed, I disagree, not real timing. You have nothing to time against when doing forms, its all you, there is no exterior force, only what in your head.]

Your wrong,
1st, Forms are Techniques strung together like pearls on a string.
but that’s the point, Techniques. Each tec. is indevidual unto itself.
Some are performed faster some slower. each technique has an attitude and every form has a spirit. but that’s part of the problem
with CMA in the west, most do it with no life. Find the life, find the timing.
Also, What’s in your head is exactly what it’s all about. If I constantly think about fighting as i perform my forms, I’m working on timing with out thinking about it.
Like breathing while eating, you body naturally adjust with out your consious thought.

Peace

Maoshan

39

Blach Toaist, I love going to raves and “dancing” (training) and flowing with the music, but this is my point, with the rythm, you know what is coming by nature of rythm, yes, every once in a while a break beat will be thrown in, but its still insync, otherwise, it wouldn’t be music, just noise.

My point: fighters are unpredictable, have rythms all unto themselves. No one can convince me otherwise that one can become a good fighter without fighting – it’s called impossible. Otherwise, those housewife taiji classes must be secretly training killers. How can one test, refine, without putting the gloves on and going at it. Then, taking them off and going at it.

Are you telling me you train without any actual combat experience, never having someone not cooperating and strying to strike you?

40

Moashan, I disagree with you as well.

If you are studying forms to memorize techniques, instead of capturing the flavor of their principles, you are waisting your time unless the person coming to take your head off comes in the same coreographed manner.

Am I insane, or am I the only martial artist that thinks it is 100% necessary to train against a full powered, uncooperative opponant. God help the martial arts, its going to hell in a hand basket. Everybody wants to dance and fight 15 guys in their head, but ask them to go three rounds, and “No, taiji is about relax. Relax. Relax.”

You’ll have plenty of time to relax in the ER when someone comes at you ready to take your head off and your freeze, panic, or get blown back because you’re not used to dealing with force, just yourself rocking back and forth.

PLEASE! Try it with some gear and oppant just once. You’ll see what needs to be worked on. I can’t even believe I’m having this conversation with a martial artists – that one has to get banged around a bit. It’s rediculous, scary, and yet very comforting at the same time.