sparring w/ a muy thai guy

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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quote friday:
don’t mt guys also have kicks that they hammer in with when they are in close?

‘Most’ thai weapons can be used at ‘close range.’ There is a thread on the main forum somewhere, no clue about title, no blue about author, but on it SevenStar listed the entire arsenal of a typical thai fighter. Might be worth a search on SevenStar if your truely interested, or just goto a MT website :smiley:

I disagree that the thai round kick is more sensitive to range then other kicks, but its very true that one of the best defenses is to jam the kick. In fact jamming is one of the best defenses to any technique thrown at you.

Something to remember when you do this, a lead round kick can switch to a rear knee (any type of knee) with about as much effort as it will take a ‘defender’ to change distance. A rear thai kick can too, it can also change to a teep (thai front kick). Thai rounds kicks are not always at the same angle - same mechanics, almost the same technique, angled up (standard), horizontal, and angled down (hazard!, my favorite). An expierenced thai will be able to look like hes throwing a round kick from the outside, and really be throwing a cut kick (round kick from inside). Also, very important, thai guys are not limited to thai boxing techniques, that left lead round kick could actually be a right lead (switch!) standard round kick, front kick, or oblique. I say this because if you make it your policy to move in on every thai round kick, your going to be not so pleasently greeted with some other kick, or some knees, not to mention what the evil thai will be doing with his elbows and head.

Or, do what the thais do - shin block (like 7* said), kick the supporting leg, or teep (stop kick) the offending round kick. You can also (depending on range of course) throw some sort of knee at him - at his kicking leg’s thigh, or a side knee to upper body or supporting leg. Another note, thai round kick is not just a ‘long’ or ‘medium’ range weapon, it can be used at ‘close’ range, to great effect. Just thoughts - changing distance vs whatever attack is a great tactic, but keep your options open, cause his are.

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changing range

If anything Thai round kicks are LESS sensitive to range changes. One of the nice things about such a blunt instrument. If you just step in closer your likely to get the knee instead of the shin.

Excellent point about the ‘switch’ kicks.

You can still step in and change the angle though. Shin blocks are a must but angling is even better. He kicks with a right rear, you simultaneously launch you left while angling off to your own right. You kick under his kick to the inside of his standing leg.

If you do ant to move in and jam his kick it needs to be combined with some kind of shoulder smash or body to body bump to knock him off balance when you get in. Hung-gar has a good downward fore arm block used in the 2 mans to block a front kick. If you smash the forearm down into the inguinal crease of his leg as you come in dropping your horse (with a right leg rear kick, your shoulder would be smacking into his chest held higher as insurance at this point) you can sometimes knock him right down on his but.

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Re: changing range

Originally posted by omarthefish
If anything Thai round kicks are LESS sensitive to range changes.

Don’t agree - IMO linear is less distance sensitive than circular

but…

Originally posted by omarthefish
You kick under his kick to the inside of his standing leg.

Thanks that’s what I originally posted at the begining of this thread - we’re going in.

When stepping in one does not step in and just stand there. Rather one’s structure fills space, attacks and jams this can be done a number of ways. In my experience the attacker changing tactics in mid technique in response to visual stimuli happens more often in discussion than real life. Generating power from the knees is not the same dynamic as generating power in a round kick. The inside of the kick (like hitting a baseball too low on the bat) is weak and the stability of the kicker is even weaker IMO. I personally think taking it on the shins is unnecessary and constitutes playing along with the MT game - but to each his own.

Let the person who started this thread try out some of these different things and see what works for him - perhaps he can update us eventually.

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Those leg kicks are damaging. Keep in mind, he was also probably taking it easy, because most MuayThai guys condition their shins throw full power kicks and condition their shins in order to raise their leg and stop full power kicks. The face punches, just keep your hands up. I suggest ask the guy to show you some Muay Thai basics in exchange for some Kung Fu techniques. He may be interested in the various kicks and punches Kung Fu has to offer. All kicks are legal in Muay Thai. I remember once I was teaching a Muay Thai guy Korean kicks and he incorporated them beautifully. Just seek out some instruction or get a Muay Thai instructional video. There are a number of them on the market which are good.
MA fanatic

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Originally posted by YungChun
[B]

My point is to step in! When someone does a round kick the target distance is critical - more so IMO than even other kicks, which are sensitive anyway. In order for the RK to work the defender must not change distance more than about 7-10 inches closer or more distant.

If the ‘defender’ steps in let’s say 10 inches (not much right?) Where will the kick land? It is jammed - the velocity of the attacking weapon is cut off AND in jamming the RK the balance of the kicker is also disrupted. The more you step in the more you will disrupt his balance - step in enough and he will fall on his a$$.

This is what intercepting is all about: The ‘defender’ must close in order to cut off the attack - breakdown structure and issue attacks. Counter attacks cannot be done very effectively by staying in one spot and ‘blocking’ or by retreating - both passive states. [/B]

That’s true for a high kick - possibly a mid, but doing that with a low kick, you’re gonna end up eating elbows and catching knees. Another thing to keep in mind is speed. You can say, “just walk into it” but remember, you only hae a limited window of time to do so. And you have to consider distance. If you are in range for the guy to hit you with his instep and you step in, then you will get hit with his shin, which is what he would prefer anyway. If you make it past the shin, you’ll be fairly safe, but the roundhouse can be extremely fast at low and midlevel heights.

Also, remember that MT does not chamber its roundhouse, nor does it make you lean back while kicking at low or mid height - you have a forward momentum. As you are stepping in, he’s not rechambering his leg, he’s bringing his weight down on it, and following with an elbow or punch since you are now in range.

That said, it’s not impossible to step in on, but harder than you make it seem.

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The roundhouse to the side/ back of the leg totally ****ed me up and it was even that hard a kick and I’m like 200 pounds. He just tagged me and “krunk”

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They call that “technique.”

:smiley:

Sometimes timing too. :eek:

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going in

Yung Chun,

Thanks that’s what I originally posted at the begining of this thread - we’re going in.

Yeah, I started out in Hung Gar so I llike going in too, but what I was trying to describe was actually using a round kick to the inner thigh, not a stomp kick to the hip joint. I tend to use the stomp against the kicking leg.

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YungChun, you have the gayest signature ever, i’m afraid.

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“If anything Thai round kicks are LESS sensitive to range changes. One of the nice things about such a blunt instrument. If you just step in closer your likely to get the knee instead of the shin.”

Not a good idea…

The knee is most likely locked on a round kick and even if it were not it would be soon enough and would snap like a celery stick.

Ever get kicked in the knee? It would be pretty much the same thing.

The only thing MT has, in my opinion, is that it trains very hard. Other than that their is nothing special or really different about the techniques.

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The difference is that they train to go through the target and not snap back. It’s a brute power style. Still quite complicated though, when you get into fine details.

"The knee is most likely locked on a round kick and even if it were not it would be soon enough and would snap like a celery stick.
"

Not true. The knee remains bent suring the kick, particularly at close range. From there, you pivot on the supporting foot and turn your hip over, “cutting” into the opponent’s leg.

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Ok, kick a plam tree with your knee and see if it, your knee that is, survives.

Either way If the person moves in enough to have the knee hit, the rest of the leg is going to continue due to the weight of the rest of the calf and foot. So whether it stops short or continues it loses its power. This is a common defensive tactic move in many martial systems. Check your UFC bible I sure you’ll see many examples of this. :smiley:

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I agree with that. I was diagreeing with your statement that the knee would already be locked out. There is a knee strike that strikes from the side, but the mechanic is very different. It’s not likg throwing a roundhouse with the knee.

My UFC bible actually advocates chi blasts!!:smiley:

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“or soon will be” was the next phrase. The effective impact position will have the knee close to a lock and certainly will on a knee hit interception.

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Originally posted by Sharky
YungChun, you have the gayest signature ever, i’m afraid.

LOL, sorry you don’t like it. It’s from a tv ad that ran here in the states - you may not have seen it and therefore don’t ‘get it.’ It got a few laughs when I first used it. Was thinking of changing it to a Daoist saying but haven’t gotten around to it. In any case content is hopefully more important than the sig.

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the knees

Ok, kick a plam tree with your knee and see if it, your knee that is, survives.

Spoken like a man with no experience with thai round kicks. If you can use your shins to kick palm trees what makes you think the knee is goiing to be less sensitive? Locked knees are vulnerable. Bent knees are about as invulnerable as anything you can hit with.

Or soon will be? Still no.

This ties into why I think they are less vulnerable to jamming than many other kicks. In addition to the ‘cutting’ seven start mentioned, one of the keys is that the leg does not snap out at the end. Instead, you drive through your opponent with the knee.

Yong Chun,

I remember the ad.

It’s funny.

I can’t figure out why.

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I wonder which of us is truely inexperienced. The knee may not be completely locked but it is no where near bent enough to be Invunerable. Go ahead, kick the palm with your knee. :rolleyes:

And the point is with this is that you were not intending to hit with a bent knee, you were intending to hit with the lower leg. The hit is jammed and the force is concentrated on the knee. The weight and power of the kick itself will lock out the leg. I’ve dumped MANY people on thier buts with this maneuver.

Next you’ll say MT is “takedown proof”. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

“Instead, you drive through your opponent with the knee.”

Nope, you drive through the opponenet with the lower leg, the knee is not an impact point. What you are trying to say is that the leg is whipped around instead of chambered and snapped. This we already know. And we talking, primarily, about body shots, not shots to the leg.

38

Okay well thing is that these kinds of discussions can go on, and on and on… He’d do this - that won’t work - if you tried that you’d get a face full of…blah blah blah…

When addressing this type of question on a forum we can only attempt to relate what our style and we do and how we train and what concepts, moves we do that seem to work for us and why. It goes without saying, or it should, that much of what one writes here will be incomplete due to time, energy and knowledge limitations.

Given that, the receiver of the information will undoubtedly fill in the missing parts with what’s in their head and interpret it perhaps differently that it was intended. So in the end we can only try to explain these things and hope for the best, perhaps with the understanding that there may be no agreement between camps of differing theory, but that someone may benefit from sharing our knowledge, however limited it may be.

Having said that.

Originally posted by SevenStar

If you are in range for the guy to hit you with his instep and you step in, then you will get hit with his shin, which is what he would prefer anyway.

In my experience MT guys are trying to use the shin as the weapon from the get-go, not the instep so when you shoot into his attack the distance to get past the shin with the small lead leg target isn’t all that vast.

Originally posted by SevenStar

As you are stepping in, he’s not rechambering his leg, he’s bringing his weight down on it, and following with an elbow or punch since you are now in range.

Yes I know.

This thing we do called stepping in is not really just stepping in. I would assume that this would apply to other CMA as well - SifuAbel, perhaps your style(s) do this as well?

The stepping in is actually an attack - on intercept it is a counter attack. Forgetting about hands/elbows for a second - the stance in our case Chum-Kiu is used to attack the structure of the attacker in this case his base. This is a part of stance breaking and the Chum-Kiu (some call Arrow Stance) is a stance movement that repeatedly thrusts the lead knee/leg part of the stance into the base of the opponent - there is great force here. This is a quick and efficient movement often done with a small flank. When done correctly this ‘arrow’ fills empty space in the center of gravity, can disrupt what’s in the way or trap what’s in the way, if anything. In this way we offer attack simultaneously with legs and hands even when not kicking.

In a case where the kicker has kicked (low or not) he is, during the kick on one leg. Assuming we do not kick the support leg or crotch, and instead use the ‘arrow’ part of the stance to step (shoot) in what happens is that a displacement occurs. This means that part of our base has taken or filled in the space that was occupied by the opponent’s foot/leg. Typically in this situation the kicking leg had no place to land - when this happens his balance is gone and it feels like the next step down the stairs was suddenly removed. If this should happen then follow-up with control of the opponent is aided greatly. If a clash happens between legs then sticking legs training can be applied.

From a strategy standpoint in WCK and I believe other southern styles the base considered vital to survival. For this reason the importance of attacking this via a ‘shoot’ and using our ‘stance’ as a weapon to attack the opponent’s base is fundemental. Most Southern styles that I know of would not lift one foot off the ground to kick unless he had a really good reason - since in so doing he is giving up, if even for a moment, his base and is also risking its loss - which can be fatal - we know what normally happens when you try to kick a grappler right? When the opponent does this: Start an attack with a kick we are compelled to fill this void (what we consider an error) to gain control – and in any case, we must join with the attack – in this case there is a void that can and must be filled from our standpoint and that’s what we suggest as being the most logical of responses to such an invitation.

It should be noted that as this close occurs we would already be thinking bridge - so hands are going to ‘attack’ the line at the same time the bottom does.

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Originally posted by SifuAbel

And the point is with this is that you were not intending to hit with a bent knee, you were intending to hit with the lower leg. The hit is jammed and the force is concentrated on the knee. The weight and power of the kick itself will lock out the leg. I’ve dumped MANY people on thier buts with this maneuver.

I was gonna say that. Ah well. What he said.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YungChun

In my experience MT guys are trying to use the shin as the weapon from the get-go, not the instep so when you shoot into his attack the distance to get past the shin with the small lead leg target isn’t all that vast.

Yeah, it is. But that will not stop one from kicking if you are in instep range. from there you are able to move in closer for the shin kick that you would really prefer to use.

That was an excellent explanation of utilizing your base. There are similar techniques in shuai chiao and also in judo and bjj as eating up space is essential in those arts. As I had stated earlier, I just wanted to point out that it’s not exactly easy to step in on those kicks.

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yungchun, you signature is very gay.

Strong enough for a man? Hmmmm. This has prison movie writen all over it.

MT isn’t takedown poof. It isn’t anything special its kung fu.

I have yet to see anything muay thai that I didn’t learn in 8 step. We have 8 kinds of knees, 8 counter kicks. combinations of punches and elbows, kneck controls.