Here’s my shifu’s version. I think as it’s a famous set, there is a wide range of variation.
onyomi,
The set you are showing is not even remotely the same set. Although it has the same name, it looks more like a Tai Tzu Hong Chuan set to me. Tai Tzu Hong Chuan has 4 Xiao Hong sets, and 6 Da Hong Sets. Some branches variy, but the system prevelant in Taiwan is as I described.
Just to confuse you though, the emperor Sung Tai Tzu is said to have created the Xiao Hong Chuan set being discussed in this thread. I have never found a Tai Tzu branch outside of Shaolin that teaches it though.
Reguardless of what it is, I must say your teacher shows a spectacular performance. He is very skilled.
xiao hong chuan
Xioa hong …great form…Shi Yanzi teaches it slightly differently…when i say this his hand positioning is slightly different..but all in all all the postures are the same…his foot positioning at the end is slightly different he teaches the toe up position after collapse the stomach strike…but ive seen other forms with the toe down…but after his explanation the toes up makes more sense…also in this demonstration the shrink the body in ding bu his leading arm travels from upper straight down Yan zi Shifu..sweeps across as in the silk reeling exercise…or the ultimate skill exercise…also his butting an elbow is pushing forward rather that traveling diagonally…but all in all great form either way…i like his pushing a palm from a diagonal cutting palm…shi yanzi uses his negative arm as a parry while his leading arm presses the attack…followed by a pressing palm…
thanks for a great clip
namo ami to fou
I know that master but I’m blocking on his name
I think I have footage of him in my Shaolin Trips video. I’m tempted to say it’s in the section that has traditional kung fu demonstration from the Academic Symposium in 2003, but I’m not sure (there’s a good complete version of Shi Deyang demonstrating in that part). My other guess is that he was one of the CWA masters in the tournament itself. Then again, it might not have been my video at all.
Oh man, I’ve seen so much video footage, I can’t even remember what’s in my own freaking video anymore. :rolleyes:
An abridged version of THAT?
THat’s one of the shortest Shaolin forms, why would
anyone bother making it any shorter?
THis guy does the form not so modern wushuy but still very external.
If you see it done with internal/external idea, you will see the primitve Tai Tzu quan
in the form, it’s pretty much all TZQ.
There is short Xiaohong now
The shortened form cuts the form in half. It’s used to teach students that only have a few lesson sessions or are very low level in skill. I’ve seen it taught to many tourists at Shaolin and heard of it being taught in short seminars.
The form above is the standard form. It’s execution is pretty standard too. I agree with Sal that this rendition is still fairly external, although the play rate at youtube tends to blur the expression of fajing. You do see more internal versions at Shaolin, mostly from the internal temple monks or the older masters.
This isn’t Shaolin Xiao Hung Quan, it is taiwanese Tai Tzu Quan from the Mai Hua Long Fist system.
What you are correctly observing is that both forms come from the same roots, Tai Tzu Long Fist.
Yep, the internal version is nice thing to see.
When you see internal version of such Shaolin forms, you can see how Chen tai ji developed out of Shaolin’s Tai Tzu, Hong Quan, Pao Chuoi, and other forms.
By the way, I’ve been making a chart that shows the one to one correspondance between the Chen Lao Jiao form and the equivalent moves in Shaolin Tai Tzi Long Fist forms.
The Lao Jia is supposed to be a few forms merged into one Chen tia ji form,
and you can follow where you are in the Tai tzi form along side the Chen TJ form pretty well.
What I’d like to do is get an expert Chen person to do the form next to someone doing the Shaolin Tai Tzu form and photograph the moves to show how Chen is derived from the Shaolin TZ long fist form.
Maybe publish it in your mag, Gene?
Chen Tai Ji and Tai Zu Quan
Originally posted by Sal Canzonieri
What I’d like to do is get an expert Chen person to do the form next to someone doing the Shaolin Tai Tzu form and photograph the moves to show how Chen is derived from the Shaolin TZ long fist form.
It has already been done. Definitely talk to Jarek Szymanski. He is an extensive researcher on internal fighting systems and has lived in China for well over 10 years now (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/aboutme.html).
Not only has he already published a large amount of materials on the connections between Chen Jia Tai Ji and Shaolin Tai Zu Quan, but also holds in his collection extensive primary and secondary research on the topic and more http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenboxingmanuals.html.
You should definitely talk to him as a key source. He is very friendly and a strong beleiver in the open exchange of information. His homepage is here http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/index.html.
BBK
Bah. I emailed him many times and he doesn’t discuss.
I know how to do both the Shaolin Tai Tzu and the Chen Lao Jia
and what I am attempting is a table that shows move by move what is the Shaolin equivalent root move and form for each move in the Chen Loa Jia form and eventually to do the same thing for the Chen 108 Move Long Fist form.
Knowing how to do the forms makes a big difference.
he makes this comment onn his site.
After examining the Chen clan writings and comparing them with “Qi Jiguang’s Boxing Canon” and “Taizu Xia Nan Tang”, Tang Hao found out that twenty nine postures of “Long-range Boxing” can be found in “Qi Jiguang’s Boxing Canon” and eleven in “Taizu Xia Nan Tang”; for “Cannon Boxing” and five sets of “Thirteen Postures”, twenty can be found in “Qi Jiguang’s Boxing Canon” and nine in “Taizu Xia Nan Tang”. Hence Tang Hao suspected that “Taizu Xia Nan Tang” was, together with “Qi Jiguang’s Boxing Canon”, the basis for Chen clan empty hand martial art. In Tang’s opinion all other techniques were created by Chen Wangting, excluding spear and staff (which, according to “Wenxiu Version”, were not original Chen techniques).
Cool! I’m impressed you all can recognize it. Since most of my Shifu’s Longfist comes from either Han Qingtang or Wang Songting and their students, and since they both came from Shandong, I’d guess it would be fair to say this is Shandong Longfist (they call it Jiaomen Longfist cuz it was often practiced by Moslems).
My shifu has several forms called “Taizu” Longfist, but he doesn’t lump his Xiao Hong-quan in with that category (though all LF come from Taizu originally). I think it is just because it was a popular form and therefore included a lot of variation. If it really was the invention of Shaolin, then by the time it got to Shandong and spent a couple hundred years there it is not surprising it is very different (or perhaps they’re totally unrelated and just share a name?).
Well, the trouble is that ther are a lot of Xiao Hong Quan and Da Hong Quan forms all over China, they are all different.
Some are based on tai tzi and some are based on Moslem martial arts.
Tai tzi Quan long fist is composed of Shaolin Lohan and Moslem Hong Quan, with internal aspects from unverifiable sources (Hua Mt. internal martial arts).
Shaolin adopted 3 of these Tai Tzu Long Fist forms some time after the Emperor visted Shaolin.
Abbott Fu Yu (or Fu Ju) combined Tai Tzu and Lohan forms with those of other styles during the Sung Dynasty and created the Shaolin Jing Gang Style. Also, the Kan Jia forms were developed around that time as well.
Yeah, but all these “scholars” are not doers, (even though they are agreeing with me) they don’t know how to do the forms they write about, so they don’t see what reality shows, that all the moves in Chen Lao Jia form are from Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan.
Of course what Chen has added is more deeper internal ideas, such as silk reeling, etc. But even these things are already there, they just brought them out more and made them more prominant.
There is also the 108 Move Long Fist form that ancient Chen style has.
I find most of the moves in that form also in the Chang Family Nei Jia Quan style from the neighboring area adjacent to where Chen village is.
hey gene is deyang is doing xiao hong chuan or something else…?
smooth nice footwork, especially for a guy of his proportions & maybe older age. I am fairly positive he’s older than me.
Looks like he was rendering the form in an instructional way, putting the influence on displaying the moves rather than going full power with it. Good way to display precision while still maintaining a flowing pace. And cohesive & enjoyable to watch.
I’m tempted to say it’s in the section that has traditional kung fu demonstration from the Academic Symposium in 2003, but I’m not sure (there’s a good complete version of Shi Deyang demonstrating in that part).
Shi Deyang is the Bomb. The way he demonstrates Da Tong Bei Quan in his video reminds me of this other man’s style, sort of an expository, illustrative style.
anyway when i watch someone like this i realize how much better my footwork could be. lol and yeah, my hands could improve too i suppose.
thanks SPJ
RD & Tai Tzu
so whats the deal with RD highjacking every thread with his insight on Tai Tzu Chaun. Does everything relate back to Tai Tzu and has he conered the market on it. And what is the big deal with Tai Tzu Chuan is it the ultimate art or something? From what I know (from China) no one actually practices true Tai Tzu anymore? Give it a rest and stop buying videos to learn from. 
Taizu Longfist is considered “the Mother of Northern Longfist,” and since Longfist is considere the Mother of Northern martial arts, some people see it as the progenitor of most modern Northern CMA. The original set, however, was very simple and rarely practiced anymore. It’s just like a set of postures with a number of move variations you can go to from those postures. There are Taizu Longfist forms as well, but they are newer, probably late Ming-early Qing at the earliest.
Also, “first” doesn’t necessarily mean “best.” Is Beng-bu the “ultimate” Praying Mantis form just because it was the first? No. In fact, it’s pretty darn simple and everything it does is done as well or better in other, newer Mantis forms. You can gain insight into the development of the primary elements of PM by practicing Beng-bu, just as you can gain some insight into the development of Northern CMA by practicing Taizu, but these are not “the ultimate” just because they’re the oldest.
Atari
Yeah I know all that… Did you know Atari pong was the first home video game? Every time a PS2 issue comes up do you refer back to Pong? And just because you had Atari Pong did it make you a better player? Let it rest …