Snatch the pebble from my hand

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Reading the remarks on the isolated sparring thread, seeing the different points of view made me think. It all seems like people fighting over limits in comfort zones and knowledge. Chi sao is limited vs. chi sao has it all, sparring is pointless vs. sparring is the next progressive step towards applying chi sau skill. Pretty much the same guys same views same arguments. I started to wonder about learning and the teacher student relationship and when a teacher has no more to offer or when a student feels inhibited or controlled.
I have never thought about having to belong to this or that group or this or that teacher, always new you reach a certain level and move on, and when teaching expect the student to have to go on his own journey and evolve on his own with his own experiences to guide him, no strings attached.
The thought of a teacher trying to keep me in or be part of some franchise or group just doesn’t seem natural, a martial artist journey is a personal and individual one.
Sure you develop friendships and you might keep your teacher and some class mates as friends for your entire life, but to truly grow and ‘’ make something your own ‘’ you need to be free, to fall and get up and win and lose.

The separation from a wing Chun training system ‘’ chi sau, forms ‘’ into real world application and self-discovery made me think of this.

When as a teacher are you honest enough to admit you have, shown what you can and you have to let them go to do what they want, and not expect them to do this or that for you.

When as a student do you know its time to leave the nest and experiment on your own, regardless of what a teacher might say.

There comes a time when the training wheels have to be removed, all the stories need to stop and you don’t look back and walk ahead into the unknown

There comes a time when you need to trust in yourself and your abilities, not lineage, sifu’s, historical stories.

Again just a rant

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Nice rant Grasshopper. :wink:

When you speak of the two different camps on the topic of chi-sao/sparring, I am reminded of the following quote which I will paraphrase. “To those that believe no proof is necessary, to those that do not believe, none will suffice”.

I think the keyword in your dialogue is “time”. Nothing remains constant through time. We get older, we get stronger (or weaker). We evolve over time and each in our own time. Based on our experience we modify our view of the world. Who can say that they have not changed their opinion on views that they held onto so strongly in the past? Time heals all wounds…

Peace,
Bill

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"TO see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour. "

William Blake

Okay, ranting child of innocence… Go thy way and peace be with you! =)

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Oh, I know this one. This is the part where master gives you a fancy belt buckle, tells you it’s Bruce’s medallion and if you go the fortune cookie factory and find the true master Sum Dum Goi he will finish your training and make you “The Last Dragon”.:smiley:

Seriously, though…I share your thoughts in this rant, my personal experience with “organizations” has ups and downs. I’m definately more about people than org’s. You learn from people, you form friendships with people, not organizations. Trouble is, there are cool people in lame organizations and lame people in cool organizations. I say forget those kinds of boundries (liniage or organizational) and get to know the people.

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I say forget those kinds of boundries (liniage or organizational) and get to know the people.

----- and what a wonderful world it could be :smiley:

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…what a glorious time to be free.:smiley: :confused: :smiley:

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Re: Snatch the pebble from my hand

Nice rant Ernie.

In keeping with the “challenging assumptions” theme, LOL, I have a couple of exploratory questions. Being a challenger of assumptions yourself, I know you can appreciate that. ;):smiley:

You wrote
When as a teacher are you honest enough to admit you have, shown what you can and you have to let them go to do what they want, and not except them to do this or that for you.

Through your writing I can appreciate your deep and sincere sensitivity to this issue. Out of curiosity, do you really feel that most other students and teachers have a relationship where they are either inappropriately imposing on one another or subjugating themselves?

When as a student do you know its time to leave the nest and experiment on your own, regardless of what a teacher might say.

Sometimes people do need to distance themselves from their teacher for any number of reasons; my perspective is let it be. There are higher callings than blind loyalty to anyone walking this earth.

I remain curious though - do you believe it is inevitably necessary for students to distance themselves from their teachers in order to experiment on their own and learn for themselves?

Do you think most teachers actually tell their students what they can and cannot do? And if so, do you believe that most students accept and follow that? Would you agree that it’s possible that some students do what they do and make their choices based on their own reasoning and free will?

The recurring theme almost begs the deeper if rhetorical question of what exactly is a student-teacher relationship. Of course there are any number of answers to that because each and every such relationship is different and unique.

Just more pensive stuff. It’s your fault for getting going on it. :stuck_out_tongue:

Regards,

  • kj
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Nice rant Ernie.

In keeping with the “challenging assumptions” theme, LOL, I have a couple of exploratory questions. Being a challenger of assumptions yourself, I know you can appreciate that

----- i always gain something from your words fire away

do you really feel that most other students and teachers have a relationship where they are either inappropriately imposing on one another or subjugating themselves?

----- well since i’m not in everybody’s head can’t say for sure one way or the other , but i have had alot of conversations via email and in person from enough people from many different lineages that give me that impression , at least enough to cause me to wonder out loud , the word ‘’ free’’ or not being ‘’ free ‘’ comes up alot ----

I remain curious though - do you believe it is inevitably necessary for students to distance themselves from their teachers in order to experiment on their own and learn for themselves?

----- yes, like any child has to grow and get away to develop , you can still maintain a relationship with some one who has a positive effect on you , but you must walk alone to know yourself -----

Do you think most teachers actually tell their students what they can and cannot do? And if so, do you believe that most students accept and follow that? Would you agree that it’s possible that some students do what they do and make their choices based on their own reasoning and free will?

----- if they follow tradition then there is a preconditioned program , in my mind . the realtionship is guided by prerequisites
this inhibits individual growth , every one has free will if the chose to accept the responsibility of those choices is something else , i feel many like to be told what to do and have things handed to them , humans can be very lazy at times , the easy way out is often the road taken , this is not fixed and my view is not everyones reality
:wink: :wink:

The recurring theme almost begs the deeper if rhetorical question of what exactly is a student-teacher relationship. Of course there are any number of answers to that because each and every such relationship is different and unique.

— for me just a guide on my journey , there will be many types of guides and i in turn might help guide others , we can only point the way , not walk for them—

Just more pensive stuff. It’s your fault for getting going on it

----- no prob i’m in one of those moods today
:slight_smile:

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ernie is correct. You should ALWAYS challenge assumptions.

Your should always seek out your OWN experience rather than accept someone else’s as gospel. Keep in mind there are styles that encourage others to go train elsewhere & compare what they’ve been taught. this is helathy, but rare in most traditionla systems.

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Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
ernie is correct. You should ALWAYS challenge assumptions.

By that token, I am correct too. :smiley:

  • kj
11

Well that goes without saying KJ :slight_smile:

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While I completely agree with the conclusions that Ernie comes to…

"There comes a time when the training wheels have to be removed, all the stories need to stop and you don’t look back and walk ahead into the unknown.

There comes a time when you need to trust in yourself and your abilities, not lineage, sifu’s, historical stories."

…I don’t really agree with some of his basic assumptions about how to get to these last two conclusions.

It’s about the whole question of “authority” that I find myself diverging from the path that my friend, Ernie, is on.

Consider this:

The question of “Authority” has been a benumbing weight upon the enquiring soul for many centuries; but now, many minds are awakening to the fact that whatever knowledge is to be gained, must be acquired by each one for himself. To all such minds, it is apparent that each must be his own authority for what he accepts or rejects; he must, therefore, use all the intelligence he possesses in examing and testing out everything that points out the way to self knowledge. With this attitude of mind, free from prejudices and preconceptions, he examines each presentation on its own merits, and accepts or rejects, as those merits appeal or apply.

But there ARE those souls who have ascended the latter of knowledge, skill, wisdom, experience, etc. to a point that we, as an individual soul…HAVE NOT REACHED YET.

And when we meet such a person, and find that we now have an opportunity to learn from them - INCLUDING IN THE TEACHER/STUDENT relationship…

then we owe it TO OURSELVES not to bypass the chance and opportunity put before us..in the name of “wanting to do our own thing”…not wanting to be “anyone’s property”, etc.

In other words…we need to not let a sense of false pride stand in the way…or “fear of authority”, etc.

We need to TAKE A CHANCE on the “teacher” who was put in our path by a higher power than any of us…or even all of us combined.

Not to accept everything they do or say blindly; but rather, to give them the benefit of the doubt when they teach/say/do something new or questionable.

Use what they say as a “working hypothesis”…and if we find that it proves wrong…or not right for us…as an individual…so be it.

And when the time comes to move on from that person or group…that’s fine too.

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Re: Snatch the pebble from my hand

Originally posted by Ernie
There comes a time when you need to trust in yourself and your abilities, not lineage, sifu’s, historical stories.
Ernie,

Agreed that you must ultimately trust in yourself and your own abilities to get the job done.

However, this comes as a result of trust in your sifu and the system that you are studying. You cannot create something from nothing, and so what we absorb from our training becomes apart of us. In the end, you cannot really separate them entirely. What you are (in the martial arts sense) is the manifestation of these ideas, concepts and theories that have been taught to you. You can accept some and reject others, and pull yet others from alternate sources. In the final analysis your kung fu will be your own, but to spurn the source of your knowledge does not serve you. It merely shows contempt for those who should be shown respect.

Having said this, you should always be a student and not a follower. The distinction being that the student contemplates and critically analyzes the information and does not merely conform to someone else’s way of thinking.

Bill

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Your words are wise and just, Bill.:slight_smile:

If your martial training and education is like a journey then instructors; sifus and sihings, are like the people who give you directions. Some because they have been there often and know the way well, others beause they have been there and know the way, and even more who have never really been there but have been told where it is. You don’t know which is which until you follow the directions given and find it for yourself.

Anyway, your best teacher is your enemy!:cool:

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The Japanese concept of Shu Ha Ri has always appealed to me.

Loosely:

First ten years, follow the rules (of style, instructor)
Next ten, break the rules (look outside, look for the holes, find your own path)
Next Ten, transcend rules (integrate the first two, express yourself via your experience)

Or from “Illuminatus!”: “think for yourself, schmuck!”

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victor,
It’s about the whole question of “authority” that I find myself diverging from the path that my friend, Ernie, is on.

interesting victor the word authority has never entered my mind when it comes to martial arts , it’s a non factor to me
some has a skill , i research it and like what i see . i pay that person to teach me this skill thus i expect no less then his complete attention ,

this is a business agreement after all , he is being hired to show me something ,

so if there is any authority it’s in my hands

if this person then turns out to be a great human being and i develop a friendship with them this is different

if this person teaches me for free then it’s a gift and i owe them for that

bill
In the final analysis your kung fu will be your own, but to spurn the source of your knowledge does not serve you. It merely shows contempt for those who should be shown respect.

i never said to spurn anyone that is treating you with respect

even when you leave on your on , if your teacher is a good person you should be blessed to have a good relationship with him as you would any good friend .

i would spurn anyone that tried to use the teacher student relationship for anything else beyond that .
as i would any one that tried to use me

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Hi, Ernie

Bravo, great post, perhaps your most significant to date…although the simple truth contained therein may elude most readers.

I am intrigued with the second quote with which you end your messages. I was blown away by it when I first came across it in “Bruce Lee - Fighting Spirit” by Bruce Thomas. It is virtually the antithesis of how most Christians would see it, as for them following Jesus unconditionally is paramount. I have searched far and wide on the internet, spoken to numerous individuals, including churchmen, but have so far failed to find the source of these “heretical” words attributed to Jesus. They sound like something out of the forbidden or rejected gospels, but as I’ve said, I have not found anything to date. Can you help? It would be hugely appreciated :slight_smile:

Hi, Victor

I understand where you are coming from, but for me it’s a case of understanding and increasingly trusting your own wisdom. The “masters” (which to me does not make sense, as I don’t see how anyone can ever progress beyond being a perpetual student, always open to learning something new) you refer to are simply individuals, no different from you and me and the other billions on this planet, who are able to let go of their accumulated knowledge and understanding, and to open themselves to fresh knowledge and understanding. What this translates to in practical, everyday living is that you have the potential to generate insights as profound and useful as anything the Dalai Lama, for example, has come up with, or to discover for yourself new understanding about combat, just as Yip Man, William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, and others came up with their innovations, modifications, etc. When it comes to putting these insights into practice, however, there appears to be no substitute for actual practice, in its numerous forms :). Continuing to develop one’s relationship with good teachers is fine, enjoyable, and fruitful, but to put them on a pedestal is limiting oneself, but then most of us (myself included, in certain aspects of life) prefer to follow…otherwise we would not tolerate so much that goes on in life, at all levels.

Regards to all.

Rolf

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AmanuJRY:
I’ve been told that Sum Dum Goi was a play on the words, “Some Dumb Goy”…LOLOL

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With respect to …

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The question of “Authority” has been a benumbing weight upon the enquiring soul for many centuries<deletia>

That was an extraordinary post, Victor.

Regards,

  • kj
20

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Your words are wise and just, Bill.:slight_smile:

And yours likewise.

  • kj