Originally posted by Matrix
“To those that believe no proof is necessary, to those that do not believe, none will suffice”.
Nice quote Matrix - my belief is that there is no proof, only belief.
Originally posted by Ernie
[B]vthis is a business agreement after all , he is being hired to show me something ,
so if there is any authority it’s in my hands
if this person then turns out to be a great human being and i develop a friendship with them this is different
if this person teaches me for free then it’s a gift and i owe them for that [/B]
Ah, this may be getting more to the crux and rub in the matter.
In my view, there is no way that I can purchase kung fu. I may pay for a person’s time, to help defray rent, insurance costs and keep the lights on, or to help compensate for a person’s accumulated expenses over time. But whatever I might be paying for, I have no illusion that it’s money for kung fu. That is something I must earn for myself.
And I cannot even fathom “I pay you therefore I worship you,” LOL. Like you, the authority is always in my hands.
An exchange of knowledge between individuals comes as a result of the qualities and dynamics of the individuals and their relationships, in whatever form and depth or lack thereof. It is what I do with information and knowledge gained that determines my growth and learning, not who I pay or how much. (If that were true, I’d be worshipping the airlines, LOL.)
FWIW, I find that I learn a lot more from my close friends and associates than I do from those with whom I have a strictly financial relationship or “sterile” exchange of information; others’ mileage may vary.
Rolf wrote
Continuing to develop one’s relationship with good teachers is fine, enjoyable, and fruitful, but to put them on a pedestal is limiting oneself, but then most of us (myself included, in certain aspects of life) prefer to follow…otherwise we would not tolerate so much that goes on in life, at all levels.
I could not agree more on this.
And yes, right or wrong, sometimes we choose to follow for well considered reasons, sometimes because we’re naive, and sometimes just because it’s “easier” and we’re lazy sorts. 
For myself, I find that sometimes leading, sometimes following, and sometimes a mix of both lends a certain and appropriate balance in life. But thinking for myself, or at least trying to, is a mandate.
As much as some people aspire to be on a pedestal, or to place others there, I have always thought it must be very lonely way up there, and a long hard fall when one is ultimately recognized as merely human like the rest of us.
In these things we can observe yet more razor fine balances - in this instance between such things as appropriate respect, appreciation, celebration, and genuine caring for someone vs. forms of idolatry and destructive behaviors. I believe it is this fuzzy fine edge that much of the banter between Ernie and some others of us is ultimately about. I’m also well aware that we sometimes insist on discussing how things are put, even when we aren’t really in disagreement about the thing itself. And sometimes we just debate for fun. 
Regardless of the amount of money exchanging hands, or none at all, I contend that the human element cannot be eradicated from the equation. And, IMHO, how sad if it were so. I enjoy, benefit, and learn so much more from “real” people than from facades, pretentious ones, or those so high on some pedestal that they cannot be reached or fathomed. Whether the subject be kung fu, or most other matters.
I’m reminded of this cliche from flower-power days of yore: “If you set it free, and it returns, then it was meant to be.”
Regards,
- kj
P.S. Ernie wins megapoints for “genuine.” ;)
Originally posted by kj
[B]Ah, this may be getting more to the crux and rub in the matter.
Hi, kj
Beautifully and equanimously (first time I’ve ever used this adverb) expressed
Regards.
Rolf
In my view, there is no way that I can purchase kung fu. I may pay for a person’s time, to help defray rent, insurance costs and keep the lights on, or to help compensate for a person’s accumulated expenses over time. But whatever I might be paying for, I have no illusion that it’s money for kung fu. That is something I must earn for myself.
And I cannot even fathom “I pay you therefore I worship you,” LOL. Like you, the authority is always in my hands.
An exchange of knowledge between individuals comes as a result of the qualities and dynamics of the individuals and their relationships, in whatever form and depth or lack thereof. It is what I do with information and knowledge gained that determines my growth and learning, not who I pay or how much. (If that were true, I’d be worshipping the airlines, LOL.)
FWIW, I find that I learn a lot more from my close friends and associates than I do from those with whom I have a strictly financial relationship or “sterile” exchange of information; others’ mileage may vary.
I could not agree more on this.
And yes, right or wrong, sometimes we choose to follow for well considered reasons, sometimes because we’re naive, and sometimes just because it’s “easier” and we’re lazy sorts. For myself, I find that sometimes leading, sometimes following, and sometimes a mix of both lends a certain and appropriate balance in life. But thinking for myself, or at least trying to, is a mandate.
As much as some people aspire to be on a pedestal, or to place others there, I have always thought it must be very lonely way up there, and a long hard fall when one is ultimately recognized as merely human like the rest of us.
In these things we can observe yet more razor fine balances - in this instance between such things as appropriate respect, appreciation, celebration, and genuine caring for someone vs. forms of idolatry and destructive behaviors. I believe it is this fuzzy fine edge that much of the banter between Ernie and some others of us is ultimately about. I’m also well aware that we sometimes insist on discussing how things are put, even when we aren’t really in disagreement about the thing itself. And sometimes we just debate for fun.
Regardless of the amount of money exchanging hands, or none at all, I contend that the human element cannot be eradicated from the equation. And, IMHO, how sad if it were so. I enjoy, benefit, and learn so much more from “real” people than from facades, pretentious ones, or those so high on some pedestal that they cannot be reached or fathomed. Whether the subject be kung fu, or most other matters.
I’m reminded of this cliche from flower-power days of yore: “If you set it free, and it returns, then it was meant to be.”
Regards,
- kj
P.S. Ernie wins megapoints for “genuine.” ;) [/B]
Rolf:
Not sure where this came from…
“Do not follow me, because if you do, you will lose both me and yourself…but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself.”
But in the Gospel according to Thomas..we find these words attributed to Christ:
“I have cast fire upon the world, and see I guard it,until the world is afire.” (saying 10)
“Whoever is near to me is near to the fire,and whoever is far from me is far from the kingdom.” (saying 82)
“Whoever drinks from my mouth shall become as I am and I myself will become he, and the hidden things shall be revealed to him.” (saying 108)
Now the key to understanding all of this is the Higher Power (or Spirit) WITHIN all of us.
Whenever Jesus talks of himself in the above quotes…he’s talking about the CHRIST principle (or the SPIRIT) within him…which is fully CONSCIOUS…and he is exhorting his followers (STUDENTS) to develop the ability within themselves to allow that same SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS to come to the forefront of their being. Which they must do for themselves.
So in the end…they must stand up on their own two feet. Therefore, when saying, as in the quote that Ernie has at the bottom of his posts…“but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself…”
He’s talking about the SELF…all in capitals…not lower case - “self”…meaning…
the SPIRIT within.
And it was Jesus’ job to TEACH the knowledge of the Higher SELF - or the “CHRIST” principle - and to point out the way to unlocking it.
When he says “dont follow me”…he means that the “lower self” is always looking for protection and orders to follow…and this tendency needs to be outgrown. We need to learn how to rely on our own inner, HIGHER SELF. (The SPIRIT within)
On a similar note…the Buddha was once asked what was the difference between him and other men. His reply was…
“I am Awake.”
Originally posted by Ernie
even when you leave on your on , if your teacher is a good person you should be blessed to have a good relationship with him as you would any good friend .
Ernie,
I think that would be ideal. The relationship would merely evolve along with everything else.
Bill
Originally posted by crimsonking
Nice quote Matrix - my belief is that there is no proof, only belief.
Thanks Crimsonking… when you boil it down, all we have is our faith.
AmanuJRY,
Thank you for the kind words. And yes, we can learn a lot from our enemies as well.
Peace,
Bill
victor.
‘’‘But in the Gospel according to Thomas ‘’’
holy cow things just got spiritual !!!
but you picked up on something i have ‘’ belief ‘’ in
…“but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself…”
you don’t need to look out side yourself , it’s all there always has been , sure sometimes a guide will come along in life and hold up a mirror for you , and you will think you see there reflection , but what you see is yourself in them , so in reality you are always seeking ‘‘SELF’’
bill,
Ernie,
I think that would be ideal. The relationship would merely evolve along with everything else.
that’s why i build friendships , not relationships were there are defined levels .
even in business , i have always said i will work with you , towards what ever goal , but i don’t do well working for you 
kathy,
In my view, there is no way that I can purchase kung fu. I may pay for a person’s time,
i see it like this , since i have been a on and off personal trainer , people pay me for my guidence and knowledge and motivation
but they have to put in the work , to get results
again this is how it starts , what it may develop into well that is beyond the training .
rolf,
I have not found anything to date. Can you help? It would be hugely appreciated
go in the bath room look in the mirrior , go to a loved one and look into there eyes , that which is beaming back at you is another reflection of "SELF’’
thank you for your words so far everyone , as usual i play one extreme to leave room for debate
Originally posted by kj
I’m reminded of this cliche from flower-power days of yore: “If you set it free, and it returns, then it was meant to be.”
…and if it does not, it was never yours in the first place.
Originally posted by Matrix
…and if it does not, it was never yours in the first place.
Ha ha, yup. Just passing through!!!
I can still see images of that yellowed old saw with the picture of the butterfly on it. That and the peace signs, tie dyes, headbands and love beads, hoards of little press-on daisies in various sizes and colors, and luv, luv, luv everywhere. Now I just want the ability to kick some sorry butt. 
Regards,
- kj
Originally posted by kj
… and luv, luv, luv everywhere. Now I just want the ability to kick some sorry butt.
KJ, Sounds like you’re just a Wing Chun hippie at heart.
Peace,
Bill
It’s true that luv, luv is everywhere! It’s how the world can go on. It’s why we can still smile though our heart is breaking. And it’s why we are still here talking, sharing, and growing. May the force be with you! =)
P.S. Gibran talks about this years ago, Ernie. If only you would crack and read books more often, big brother! =)
On Freedom
And an orator said, “Speak to us of Freedom.”
And he answered:
At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom,
Even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them.
Ay, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff.
And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment.
You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care nor your nights without a want and a grief,
But rather when these things girdle your life and yet you rise above them naked and unbound.
And how shall you rise beyond your days and nights unless you break the chains which you at the dawn of your understanding have fastened around your noon hour?
In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains, though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle the eyes.
And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free?
If it is an unjust law you would abolish, that law was written with your own hand upon your own forehead.
You cannot erase it by burning your law books nor by washing the foreheads of your judges, though you pour the sea upon them.
And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed.
For how can a tyrant rule the free and the proud, but for a tyranny in their own freedom and a shame in their won pride?
And if it is a care you would cast off, that care has been chosen by you rather than imposed upon you.
And if it is a fear you would dispel, the seat of that fear is in your heart and not in the hand of the feared.
Verily all things move within your being in constant half embrace, the desired and the dreaded, the repugnant and the cherished, the pursued and that which you would escape.
These things move within you as lights and shadows in pairs that cling.
And when the shadow fades and is no more, the light that lingers becomes a shadow to another light.
And thus your freedom when it loses its fetters becomes itself the fetter of a greater freedom.
Phil,
Bill,
You’re welcome. Though we may not learn much or often from our enemies, they probably provide the most profound lessons.
KJ,
Thanx.
An exchange of knowledge between individuals comes as a result of the qualities and dynamics of the individuals and their relationships, in whatever form and depth or lack thereof. It is what I do with information and knowledge gained that determines my growth and learning, not who I pay or how much.
I love this statement, props kj!
I would like to say that IMO, a payment is made for the exchange of knowledge and true, it is up to you how you use that knowledge. In a student/teacher relationship (at least any that has an exchange of $$$) the comodity that is being passed is knowledge. Say it were a guitar teacher, you pay him for the knowledge of how to play a guitar, whether you can play worth a s**t is up to you, how much you practice, understand and (!!!Important!!!) how well you are able to express yourself with it.
P.S. Gibran talks about this years ago, Ernie. If only you would crack and read books more often, big brother! =)
i spent my youth reading books and poetry
now i prefer to live in the moment
i prefer to not be the boy in the bubble , reading about other peoples adventures
i like to live my own
A new angle??
Concerning authority and discipline, I would like to say that since we are referring to a MARTIAL art, we need to realize that origings of the art were related to combat. So the existance of authroity in a martial arts school is not unheard of. Of course we can argue the in’s and out’s of why it is or isn’t nessisary, but any who have served in the military will know how effective training can be when you have someone who can motivate you (using either positive or negitive means) beyond what your concious mind “thinks” it is able to achieve.
…as kj would say, milage may vary.
my step father was a ex marine
he tried to’’ motivate’’ me
didn’t work:D
i guess when you are self motivated you view things with a different life filter
to each there own as long as we all grow together
true to form, I never said the military was the best at motivating people, but it does work on the majority (othrewise their methods would change). I find it’s the ones who say “I can’t” that need the more “pushy” kind of motivation, for the ones who are full on “I can” people motivation often comes from inspiration, but there are many in MA that are lacking self confidence and self esteem and that creates some barriers for motivation that are difficult to overcome without a little push.
I personally don’t agree with the “drill sargent” image for a MA instructor (makes me think of the bad sensi from Karate Kid).
I think the ability to learn a person’s personality and identify a “good” way of motivating them is an excellent quality for a Master.
but there are many in MA that are lacking self confidence and self esteem and that creates some barriers for motivation that are difficult to overcome without a little push.
[[[[ i like to use a cattle prod just zap em ]]]
think the ability to learn a person’s personality and identify a “good” way of motivating them is an excellent quality for a Master.
[[[ well we know i’ll never be mistaken for one of those ]]]
“my step father was an ex marine
he tried to ‘motivate’ me …didn’t work.”
God what a shock…REALLY !!!
I never would have guessed it!
I have met very few good fighters who DIDN’T have a “father-figure” of some type, who…shall we say…“inspired them” in some way.
And oftentimes that can mean that our rebellion against them is a huge factor in the burning desire to become a good fighter.
(Here’s another shock for you…I also fall into this latter group.)
But it can also mean that we come to equate all “authority figures” with the word…BAD…
which…in do time…will no longer be an asset to our development…but a hindrance.
I know for a fact that, in my life anyway, it’s long been overdue for me to STOP being so rebellious against certain types of “authority”…
because I’ve been so used to being suspicious of ALL authority for so long. After awhile this kind of thing can be very counter-productive to my own PRESENT best interests.
It served me well as a teenager and into my twenties…but time…and circumstances…have marched on.
One of the paradoxes of life: What was yesterday’s medicine can become tomorrow’s poison.
IMO, authority is like respect in that you give it to the person (except, of course, in the realm of slavery and government). We usually see authority as something beyond our control (and it was when we were kids), not as something that you had say in. Truth is, as an adult, the only ones who have authority over you are those you submit to - your boss/employer, teacher, priest, parents, etc. Some reasons to submit to them are obvious; boss-cause you need a job/money, Cop - duh!? Others, like your teacher, parents or even your significant other, not as obvious, is because of Trust. By trusting them and trusting their judgement you give them authority, to whatever degree you dictate. This kind of authority can be from respect as well. It’s all connected.
trust much better word then authority
trust that is earned even better
some one you trust can guide you
authority sounds like sister mary elephant with a ruler smacking my hands