Siu Lam Hung Ga - Every Form A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
21

MaFuYee

Exactly. You only need one form to get damn good. Not many. However, if you want to learn more than one form. That’s okay too. Just make sure you mastered the basics, have a proper foundation, and master one form before going to the next. If not, you are just wasting your time. However, the amount of time this will take depends on the individuals inherant abilities and the amount of work that he or she puts into it. By the way, whether you know one form or many, you never stop learning. Even a master still considers himself a student. The reason is because he never ceases to acquire knowledge in his art. The more you practice, the more will be revealed to you.
Kung Fu is a way of life.

22

Ling

I reside in the Franconian region of Bavaria, Germany. Surrounded by mountains and vineyards. Good for training.

Why were you puzzled by my post? “Peace to Evert, Rene, Justin, Ming and the whole Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga family…”? I met these HK brothers on this forum and from what I have heard so far, they really seem to know their art, and have the true spirit of Gong Fu. I met them when you were bad mouthing me online, and they were some of the descent people who gave me intellectual discussion. If you look at my profile it says that I am interested in meeting new CMA friends on line. If you remember, I also greeted others as well. Let me remind you. I said: Peace to the Fut Sao or Buddha Wing Chun family; Sifu Leung, Ray, James, etc. Notice, they are not HK but they are still my Gong Fu brothers. Are you also puzzled by that? Maybe this might surprise you further…Peace to the Yee Hung Ga family, Yi Chi Wai Sifu, Hal, Fernando, Tony, Pedro, Peter, Zsuzxana, Chris, Matthew, etc. I can say peace to other schools too, such as the Kenny Gong camp, the Wai Hong camp, by the way peace Hui!, etc.
In other words, I have brothers all over: in Sil Lum Hung Kuen, Sil Lum Wing Chun, Sil Lum Choi Li Fut, Wu Dang Hsing-I, etc. East Coast, West Coast, Europe, etc. And so what? This is a forum
isnt it? Where you meet new people, catch up with old friends, learn, exchange information, etc. In
fact, I’ll even say peace to you. Maybe you’ll be puzzled by that too. If not, good. If so, that’s
okay too. Just master slow breathing, it calms the wind energy rising from the Liver.

Peace

23

Hi Niko, back again? Don’t be so upset. Maybe you have to practice slow breathing yourself :wink:

We can get back to the initial discussion, if there is still time for that. I was telling my wife I was doing some Ga Foh (homework) on my PC.

Peace

Ling

24

Ling

Sometimes I get motivated and jump into a discussion because the direction is good and serious. If the direction (politics) of the dicussion is wrong, I leave the dicussion entirely. Intellectual discussion is good and interesting. A discussion littered with ego and political debate is ignorant. I am an eager practitioner with some good connections worldwide. We practice, exchange and support one another with serious information and documents. An open mind leads to open interaction, leading to more knowledge and wisdom. After many years I eventually compiled an archive of unique information. Because of my cultural background, I can read several languages such as Spanish, French, German, etc. As for the Chinese books and articles I acquired. I can read some Chinese too, but not enough to translate the complex parts. With the parts I am unable to translate I, I get help from my Chinese brothers. More important is that you recognized some parts. One more thing, I am astonished that you Ling, still think I am hiding myself. Even if I was an Eskimo in Alaska, does that matter to what I am saying? Do you think that only a few possess The Knowledge. Believe me, I met people with an enormous amount of rare knowledge, but none of them choose a forum as a place to start serious
interaction.

I was lucky in my martial arts career to meet at least three teachers who were very open to me. They had serious things to say, and right now I can say ‘rare’ information. One of my last goals was to practice with Kenny Gong, another special teacher (!), but I was too late. However, I was fortunate enough to practice with one of his students. Muslim by the way. Which is not surprising since Hsing-I is a Chinese Muslim art.

Niko is my name, simple is that. And as I told you in a previous response, I have only lived a few months in Germany. Currently I am orientating myself to study TCM or the art of Die Da. And yes, I currently had contact with a Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen teacher; Justin Ehrlich about this specialization. Does this make me suspicious?

Let’s go back to your question. From a colleague in Singapore I received a scanned copy, on it the curriculum of Luk A Choy. This copy is from a book (I think) by a Malaysian author, and is (in my opinion) not complete. That is if you know the dates and history of Tit Kiu Sam, and Luk A Choy. As you read, there are many interesting subjects to start a serious discussion:

The text discussed six students of Gee Shan Sim Si: 1)Hung Hei Goon 2) Wong Kwan 3) Luk Ah Choy 4) Tse Ah Fook, 5) ‘Laan Tau’ Hoh and 6) Taam Ji. Below is the translation of Luk
Ah Choy’s curriculum:

A student of Gee Shin, a kungfu brother of HHG and teacher of Wong Kay Ying. He taught Wong Kei Ying Hung Ga Kuen in the “Hoi Tong” temple in (Canton.

His curriculum in the beginning of 1800 was:

  1. Mui Fa Kuen (Plum Blossom Fist),
  2. Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, (Character “I”- Taming the Tiger Form)
  3. Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen (Tiger Crane Boxing)
  4. Ng Ying Kuen (Five Animal Boxing Form)
  5. Ng Hang Kuen (Five Element Boxing)
  6. Tit Sin Kuen (Iron Wire Boxing)
  7. Ng Long Pa Kwa Kuen (Fifth General Yang’s
    Stick)
  8. Mui Fa Cheung (Plum Blossom spear)
  9. Ji Mo Do (Butterfly Knives).

Some minor curriculum conclusions:

None of the other students of Gee Sin Sim Si did: Mui Fa Kuen and Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen,

Only Hung Hei Goon did Fu Hok,
And on Taam Ji’s curriculum was Tit Sin Kuen too,
But… Saam To Kuen (Three Path Boxing) and Saam Tsien Kuen (Three Battle Fist) were in it mostly. These forms are known as the ‘Sanchin’ of Southern Siu Lam Boxing.

25

Hi Niko the Eskimo

Some short notes as reply.

Thanks for sharing with us.

Lineage like Venerable Master Chee Sim – Luk Ah Choy – Wong Kei Ying – Wong Fei Hung – etc. makes sense. Although many Hung Ga schools use different lineages.

Venerable Master Chee Sim had the following students: Hung Hei Kun, Luk Ah Choy, the three brothers Fong, the monk Saam Dak (three virtues), Tse Ah Fook, a Hakka called Tong. The latter did not learn the whole system. This all according to oral, and probably legendary tradition.

Luk Ah Choy’s curriculum looks rather strange to me. Seems like in the first part of the 19th century he already had a curriculum that just started a hundred years later. Unbelievable to me. A not trustworthy source as I may so. Or can you defend this.

For me modern Hung Ga curriculum starts with Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing. They developed Hung Ga as we know it today.

Just going upstairs to workout now, cause I’m a rooftop practitioner. It’s just a quarter past six. Good for doing Tit Sin with slow breathing :wink:

Ling

26

Ling

My compliments about your sources. You recognized most of the translations, and I agree completely with your view on Luk Ah Choy’s curriculum. After observing these individual curriculums (from Gee Shan’s students) so many times, it’s nice to have an impression about some sources and the direction of it. True or false. I think with the discussed and published letters (over the last year) we all come to the same conclusion. Therefore, it seems that the Forum might be an interesting media through which one can convey one’s ideas, when used with respect.

In my opinion, I would not classify Sam Tak Woseung as a disciple of Gee Sin. Although there are some strong historical links between them. But as you know, there are also between Gee Sin and Ng Mui (for instance). Exchanging knowledge with each other was NOT a teacher - student relation. In my opinion, the relation was brotherhood. Both representing their own truth and specific systems under one umbrella - Siu Lam Boxing.

LING: For me, the modern Hung Ga curriculum starts with Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing. They developed Hung Ga as we know it today.

You are correct. That’s why Hung Kuen is a (modern) system, younger than 100 years, but with some great old roots. Around 1900, Wong Fei Hung was much older and possibly found it neccessary to refine some systems. It also seems that he loved practicing the art of Iron Wire Boxing. So he decided to add techniques and principles in the other systems, such as Siu Lam Fook Fu Kuen and old Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen. So the great grandmaster of Hung Kuen -Wong Fei Hung, created a nice and new balanced system of Hung Kuen, representing internal and external concepts. Hardly seen in those days. But all roots are, BEAUTIFUL SYSTEMS ON THEIR OWN.

The circle is round again. Yin and Yang qualities are not only found in the sets, but also in the text. This was a nice chat with you, Ling. Time to focus on different subjects in life again, therefore I will go back to contemplation (but not for 7 years :wink:

NIKO, from Germany

[This message was edited by niko on 08-26-01 at 05:44 AM.]

27

I don’t care who is right or wrong here…

I am just amazed (and humbled) at the level of historical knowledge you guys have got. Keep it up - a well informed debate is the basis for all true learning.

That’s why I am here in the first place.

“We had a thing to settle so I did him”
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

28

phoenix-eye, thanks for your compliment.

Historical and theoretical knowledge makes us understand our respective styles of Kung Fu better. But practical knowledge is always more important.
Theory and Practice are like sister and brother. They have the same parents.
Also you can say theory and practice are like Yin and Yang. They complement eachother. But more important they have to be in balance. There is no practice without theory.

Niko, does “I go back to complentation” mean that you will study your sources more critical?

You give Wong Fei Hung a lot of praise, and not without reason because his place in history is unparalleled.

But I doubt if there has ever been a “old Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen”. For the following reasons.
a. Credits to Hung Hei Kun creating the form Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen are based on legend.
b. Before, in olden times, Southern Siu Lam was a slow and heavy style, characterized by its many repetitions. Gung Gee Fok Fu Kuen is an example of this older Nam Siu Lam. The whole concept of Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen is the opposite of these type of movements. It’s fast and light.
c. More important, we probably have to give Lam Sai Wing all the credits for creating this unique form, that sets modern Hung Gar way apart from the other Gar styles and systems based on (older) Nam Siu Lam concepts.

Ling

29

Hello Ling,

My compliments on your posts.
But, since you keep asking about who Niko really is, we don’t know anything about you either.
So, if I may ask, who are you, who is your sifu, what styles have/do you practise, where do you live and where did you get all your knowledge?

Charris