http://soxanddawgs.com/2009/05/24/video-lyoto-machida-knocks-out-rashad-evans/
Watch the slow mo. The first punch–he neutralized rashad’s jab at the same time throwing a left handed bomb
[QUOTE=Pacman;947372]http://soxanddawgs.com/2009/05/24/video-lyoto-machida-knocks-out-rashad-evans/
Watch the slow mo. The first punch–he neutralized rashad’s jab at the same time throwing a left handed bomb[/QUOTE]
It works, it’s just low %. It all depends who your trying to apply it against. And it’s a matter of timing. You can have 3 basic timings, hit the guy just before he releases (while he’s loading up, setting up), hit him while he’s releasing (simul blk/strk), hit him just after he releases (follow him back), but your own personal timing and perception must be finely tuned to pull it off from a non contact position. In the end timing is the essence, without it nothing you have learned will work effectively.
James
I prefer and thus find that, “stop hits” are more effective.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;947385]I prefer and thus find that, “stop hits” are more effective.[/QUOTE]
“To reach me, you must move to me, your attack offers me an opportunity to intercept you” - ??
JR
[QUOTE=sihing;947389]“To reach me, you must move to me, your attack offers me an opportunity to intercept you” - ??
JR[/QUOTE]
Correct.
I think it was my experience in ITF TKD that did the trick, stop hits where a huge mainstay in my training.
Along the lines that this thread is going:
http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/27899.html
Best,
K
IMO one of the pitfalls of VT training is that to much emphasis is placed on combo strikes , rather than strike power , timing, angling to face , shifting around like a fighter FIRST.
First the the simultaneous strike/deflections from either of the individual arms striking [tan is a strike in training / jum a strike in training]…THEN partnerships
Primary attacks from jut sao, due to a lead strke being intercepted/blocked/impeded…and pak sao, jsut depends which hand is striking / leading the attack at that given angle/ side /position and the opponents movement.
The SLT teaches the first actions [ in each form] to create a line the wrists x along while striking , then a simple punch from the centerline with each arm, starting from the centerline , not the side of the body.
The tan / jum/ vu/ fok / huen cycles …tan for the strikes outside line [ either side ]
jum for the inside line , fok for neither tan/jum just hold centerline relaxed.
Wrists travel the line xing it as they extend ,tan & jum never leaving the line , the tan elbow spreads off the line as it hits ,not the tan wrist, jum elbow tries to stay along the line as it hits , jum wrist never leaves the line …important for facing techniques.
Basic strikes from the 1st section of the SLT teach a simple and effective simultaneous
rotation of 2 arms , EACH capable of delivering 2 actions per 1 action…dan chi-sao is redundant after learning the 2 step strike…not wrist use as many have adopted, but elbow and fist/wrist alignment drills, dropped in a 1-2 beat for sparring /fighting…just hitting with the unseen arms ability ingrained.
The middle sections of SLT introduce the partnerships of lead/man sao strike being interrupted and the following strikes in proper cycles of attack/deflect or A/D for short
A/D arm can be all the known actions …we know those :D…what many fail to realize is the basic strikes ability beyond a chain fist attack, rather than arms /elbows / fists attack…iow the focus goes to the fists striking , not the arms behind the fists and the preliminary work of the VT system to make them function thoughtlessly along our line as we engage to fight…if the focus is on the fists alone the elbows fly out etc…and the ability to work moves to the second stage attack partnerships before the first ever worked…
A fighter shouldnt require to always use a free lead hand to parry for the rear to enter. if the lead is trained to simply strike as well with the added ability to deflect from angles
training etc…the fighter free’s up his attacking to simply strike and enter with strikes from each hand FIRST , not grab the guys hand with lop first…
ASA you do this your equal…the systems tactics train us to have the added arm striking ability to fight flanked individual arms in a fluid attacking action…
not down the center line blasting away with lead legs , like nut jobs:D
[QUOTE=Pacman;947372]http://soxanddawgs.com/2009/05/24/video-lyoto-machida-knocks-out-rashad-evans/
Watch the slow mo. The first punch–he neutralized rashad’s jab at the same time throwing a left handed bomb[/QUOTE]
It all depends on what you consider a block and strike. Is covering your jaw with one hand while firing with the other a block/strike combo? Or do you have to have both hands outstretched like a Biu Da? IMO, stuff like a Biu Da is great looking, but it’s hard to get the power from the hips/body when you’re sticking both hands out.
we dont use 2 arms equally extended to fight…as chi-sao is a drill with each partner extending each arm facing for training the ability to have equal arm capability and action/reaction from each others random entry angling striking and counter striking the attacking arms…
for fighting /sparring you dont enter with 2 leading arms for the simple reason that they can be trapped easily…with a man / vu , aka lead & rear attacking hands the concept is to never be stopped from delivering an attacking action…
lead hand , rear hand , I see it all the time in fighting ; )
stop thinking of vu-sao as a protecting passive rear hand to parry stuff, sure its available but it is also the king of the attacking hands …why we place so much emphasis in training the VU_SAO!!~! aka rear attacking hand . And its postions relative to our c line and raised bongs , if it is impeded for even a fraction …tsk tsk tsk…back to training !!
If you see vu-sao as a passive rear hand to receive stuff with then your mind isnt attacking but rather reacting to being attacked ..you should be firing it from a x line position to delver the unthinking line attack…it is a root hand for ‘no mind’ attacks …SLT tut sao teaches the recovery of vu-sao, CK form has it for a very good reason, to recover the bridged leading arm with vusao already in position to fire , not lop as so many get ingrained…just strike from vusao 1st then see what happens …BG has it from underneath the arm…because your arm has been either lifted as you attack or you cant go over your own bridge as slt thinking…
WSL used to have a board with individuals mistakes written on it so each could work the hand in question on the board…
Vu-sao ; )
Bil gee can offer alternatives..
Vu Sao is German way of English spelling Wu Sao? I was scratching my head a bit…
What’s missing is one needs to control the bridge with proper pressure. The punch moves along the bridge using Sticking (Chi) and Rubbing, groping, touching (Mor). This is collectively known as “Chi Mor Hang Kiu”
One fist has all the applications. Jik Chung Chuie has Fuk, Tan, Bong, Gaun, Tiu, Jut energies present… so you have one hand with all the ability to do much control, and have another hand free to do more damage. Forget about Tan Da, Fuk Da, Gaun Da, Gum Da…you need a Pak Da and Lop Da to get in (life is full of opening doors by pushing and pulling), but only need punches with multi vectoral forces with them.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;947400]IMO one of the pitfalls of VT training is that to much emphasis is placed on combo strikes , rather than strike power , timing, angling to face , shifting around like a fighter FIRST.
[/QUOTE]
Chain punching as a application is due to no power in their strikes in the 1st place, trust me I know all about this as I was a follower for 18yrs. WCheung could throw 8-9 punches a second, they calulated that at Boston Univ back in the 90’s, but what happens when each punch has connected, the rebound force would slow everything down, especially if you have no body structure to absorb that force more efficiently. That was never talked about, taught, or even heard of in that line. I see WT guys doing the samething, lots of punching, but little control and power. I would think that as a striker one would 1st develop a good punch, good footwork and good finishing skills. Correct?
James
[QUOTE=sihing;947432]Chain punching as a application is due to no power in their strikes in the 1st place, trust me I know all about this as I was a follower for 18yrs. WCheung could throw 8-9 punches a second, they calulated that at Boston Univ back in the 90’s, but what happens when each punch has connected, the rebound force would slow everything down, especially if you have no body structure to absorb that force more efficiently. That was never talked about, taught, or even heard of in that line. I see WT guys doing the samething, lots of punching, but little control and power. I would think that as a striker one would 1st develop a good punch, good footwork and good finishing skills. Correct?
James[/QUOTE]
I never saw the results of the actual study, but heard from William Cheung or maybe it was from Joe Sayah(its been a few years), that they calculated it at around 150lbs of force, per punch. I always thought that implied that he actually hit something, to calculate this. Do you know of anywhere I can find the links to the actual study?
Chain punching in serious fighting/all out sparring is an extremely overated technique/strategy - when up against any half-way decent fighter. Why all the hoop-la about it? Unless you completely catch someone with the first few shots right in his face or head - and with some solid driving power and pressure behind the punches…
this fight will immediately go to clinch, in all probability. And then what?
[QUOTE=chusauli;947417]Vu Sao is German way of English spelling Wu Sao? I was scratching my head a bit…
What’s missing is one needs to control the bridge with proper pressure. The punch moves along the bridge using Sticking (Chi) and Rubbing, groping, touching (Mor). This is collectively known as “Chi Mor Hang Kiu”
One fist has all the applications. Jik Chung Chuie has Fuk, Tan, Bong, Gaun, Tiu, Jut energies present… so you have one hand with all the ability to do much control, and have another hand free to do more damage. Forget about Tan Da, Fuk Da, Gaun Da, Gum Da…you need a Pak Da and Lop Da to get in (life is full of opening doors by pushing and pulling), but only need punches with multi vectoral forces with them.[/QUOTE]
yes wu/vu
you say lop sao I say jut sao , i used to lop but not anymore…used lop in a fight once, I missed and nearly spun around , I thought it was my fault I had to re-face the guy and punch him again :o
Like grabbing a ball being hit like a paddle-ball at you …if you leave a hand there like jut sao , you miss the grab you grab the ball you still dont get hit the ball hits your hand /arm on the line you can move towrds the paddle to stop it completely in the same line, try to lop the ball sideways /lateral grabs and you miss it hits you in the face while your hand goes left or right to the balls path…like trying to catch a fast jab , just punch the jabbing arm attacking it, you make contact , ‘it’ will tell us what to do to it…miss and your striking in and fighting , attacking …
or shooting a machine gun from the sides of an advancing line , rather than before it…one just aims straight ahead firing , minimizing the furthest ends ability to face us…
firing from the front turning here there missing through gaps , open to a shot from either side of the advancing line
in chi-sao the line is randomly presented so we can adopt a side to fire from…once we fire we endeavor to do it in a straight line before us as we shift according to the lines atempt to reface us…no sticking or controlling is required, as the lines attempts to ‘stick & find’ us allows us to shift as the over turn etc…we simply face the direction we need while firing…
each duality of arm attacks works to shut down either flank… jum tan/ an jum
jut or lop ? I jut first, lop if I must…sounds like a song
[QUOTE=sihing;947432]Chain punching as a application is due to no power in their strikes in the 1st place, trust me I know all about this as I was a follower for 18yrs. WCheung could throw 8-9 punches a second, they calulated that at Boston Univ back in the 90’s, but what happens when each punch has connected, the rebound force would slow everything down, especially if you have no body structure to absorb that force more efficiently. That was never talked about, taught, or even heard of in that line. I see WT guys doing the samething, lots of punching, but little control and power. I would think that as a striker one would 1st develop a good punch, good footwork and good finishing skills. Correct?
James[/QUOTE]
The JKA did a similar study which you can find in the book Dynamic Karate, that showed a dramatic decrease in impact force after the 3rd punch in a 7 punch combo ( I think it was 7…it was a multi punch one though), the force went up to the 2nd strike,a slight drop to the 3rd and a dramacti one to the 4th, etc, etc
off topic but in wsl vt the hips and elbows should connect for force , not just a chain punch, in William Chungs defense, He is just showing one aspect of a vt system…i know he’s not going to stand there and hit me like a speed ball in a real fight huminahuminahhuminah with my head rocking back and forth from the onslaught
Ive learned from door work that hitting too fast doesnt do anything…guys who want to throw lots of punches fast, we see them in fights , guys throwing lots of little shots with no real stopping power…
the recipient is just getting tapped , cuts maybe with bare fists, but one good slam and they should be doing the 6 ft butt slide …
LOL! Those 8 - 10 taps per second are not like real punches! You hit with the Chu ™ pelvic thrusting (and really its the complete torso thrusting), not the arms! This is so you f**k the guy up!
Just when I met the YKS guy and he told me his guy could punch 10 times in a second - how hard was that, I asked? They can score and tap, but hardly knock anyone out.
150 lbs is weak. Boxing’s right cross can strike out at 600 - 800 lbs - I used to do that at the arcade with those punching machines. WCK should be right about there, too. 150 lbs is just tapping with the arms, not enough body.
Chain punching as a application is due to no power in their strikes in the 1st place, trust me I know all about this as I was a follower for 18yrs. WCheung could throw 8-9 punches a second, they calulated that at Boston Univ back in the 90’s, but what happens when each punch has connected, the rebound force would slow everything down, especially if you have no body structure to absorb that force more efficiently. That was never talked about, taught, or even heard of in that line. I see WT guys doing the samething, lots of punching, but little control and power. I would think that as a striker one would 1st develop a good punch, good footwork and good finishing skills. Correct?
No arguments here.
FWIW, my instructor Rick Spain went through a period trying to match or beat this “record” (I think it was actually 8.3 per second, FWIW). He got up around there, and apparently the old man told him, “ah, but did they measure the power of the punches?”, which presumably they did at Boston U, though one wonders how if you are just punching in air - as James says, actually hitting something with penetration would have to slow things down.
He said he found the experience a bit of a waste of time, as the constant concentration on speed meant he neglected other aspects of his training, and that overall nothing really improved.
Some WT guys claimed they could hit faster than this (this being the times of the TWC/WT feud), and the Speed Man, John La Tourette, came out claiming he could hit up to 12 times a second, but it was all stuff like fist/wrist/elbow/elbow/shoulder/… and none of it really looked like it would hurt anyone.
[QUOTE=AdrianK;947450]I never saw the results of the actual study, but heard from William Cheung or maybe it was from Joe Sayah(its been a few years), that they calculated it at around 150lbs of force, per punch. I always thought that implied that he actually hit something, to calculate this. Do you know of anywhere I can find the links to the actual study?[/QUOTE]
I remember reading about it some of WCheung’s books, then I found the Inside Kung Fu addition that profiled the study with pictures and explainations. Yeah, from what I understand the 150-160lbs of force per punch was what was stated in the article, and back then I thought that was powerful. Now I don’t as Robert mentioned the average cross is up around 800-900 lbs. Isn’t it more efficient to throw 1 instead of 3?
James
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;947458]The JKA did a similar study which you can find in the book Dynamic Karate, that showed a dramatic decrease in impact force after the 3rd punch in a 7 punch combo ( I think it was 7…it was a multi punch one though), the force went up to the 2nd strike,a slight drop to the 3rd and a dramacti one to the 4th, etc, etc[/QUOTE]
You know what, since training in WSL method, my thinking is along these lines, that max you could throw 3 shots in a stepping action. Sorta like a fajing thing, I saw Erle Montague talking about this on one of his tapes once. Here’s me doing a 3 punch combo VT style on the bag, taped it last October, just concentrating on using my elbow/hip/ground connection, not trying to over power it, and accuracy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZVyNtkE_gg .
James