Hi All,
I was talking with a friend and we got onto Signature move’s that get added to forms/sets.
i am wondering who add’s Signature moves to there forms.
and also if so .are they not changing the forms that they were taught in the first place!
would the forms over time then themselfs be then changed and that they are then not the true forms at all that they are ment to be and as such not be classed as traditional Mantis forms?
hope you guy’s have things to say on this?
regards roy:D
Are you on about a signature salute at the start or end of a form?
Some Sifus put markers in the form to identify the lineage if you know what to look for. Is that what you mean?
maybe?
OK if say someone is taught a form/set.
then a few years later the set is re-taught but moves have been altered or changed by the person who taught the 1st time around.
WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT??
i understand the start or finish could change as that is not really the form/set
so that could be classed as ok but what about other moves in the form?
A few teacher like to tell the different generation of students as the sifu progresses to different time periods of their teaching time.
Some teachers modify the set according to tailor it to the student’s built and physical ability.
Other teachers just forget because of their age and memory.
Hi roy:
Form is make up by groups of shou fat.
shou fat is make up by one signature movement together with several movement that is prior this signature movement.
For example the closing door kick,you know there are several differnt series of movement prior the kick,just like my BSLQ.
Different form may have different kind of closing door kick,this will give you more example of what you will encounter in combat.
If you want to alter some movement,that depend what movement you will altered,otherewise very hard to say that is ok or not.
If the movement is not inside the group of shou fat with continuous strike,may be you can alter.
For weapon form,what is a good weapon form? A good weapon form should contained all the techniques of that particlar weapon. You can not perfomed other types of weapons as what a spring and autumn dai dao does.
If you want to alter a form it should be in a improved way,to add more techniques
to the form to make it perfect. Otherwise this is not wise to alter a traditional form.
Best regards,
alex
Stop me if you heard this before…
Five senior students enter a room and decide to work on a particular form. After they finished, there was some debate. 2 thought that a particular movement was supposed to be a fist, 2 were positive that it was a palm, and 1 didn’t care if it was a fist or palm but he knew that it definitely had to be aimed higher.
That is awesome B!! Hehehe 
I see those discussions all the time in class. Verticle palm?? No, sideways palm!
sometimes I let students debate for a while before walking out to the floor. It is amusing sometimes. “well this is the way shifu taught me!” like if I pulled them into the secret room and showed them the true way. Usually the movement is somewhere in the middle of the debate, which they all instantly remember after I show them.
continued…
[QUOTE=MightyB;938265]Five senior students enter a room and decide to work on a particular form. After they finished, there was some debate. 2 thought that a particular movement was supposed to be a fist, 2 were positive that it was a palm, and 1 didn’t care if it was a fist or palm but he knew that it definitely had to be aimed higher.[/QUOTE]
Guess what?- we’re all students. Mutations are inevitable.
so that’s my theory on where all the “signature moves” come from.
Short and Sweet
In my opinion, forms are the least effective training method.
If you need to add or delete something, create a new set or drill.
If you are worried about forms being “stolen” sue youtube.
Nowadays, I beleive forms are best for cultural and historical preservation.
That’s all,
M.Dasargo
I’ll just say “Ditto” to that last one.
I`m really not in the mood for this after our loss today. But I really question this “forms are the least effective training method”. Our forms are the encyclopedia of all techniques within or fighting system. We use every technique/maneuver out of our forms for fighting, our forms are indeed effective. Sorry no fancy words like most post here, not a writer.
I’m with you yu shan. I understand what he’s saying though. Seems to me most peeps go to extremes either giving them too much value or writing them off completely.
Understand their usefulness and act accordingly. They have value but don’t get lost in them to where you forget the rest (you know how that goes).
Hello all,
To be clear, forms are the least effective training method.
The techniques and principles embeded are absolutely effective in fighting.
However, they are more effectively trained with a partner in drill format and sparring.
I value forms for what they are; a capsule of highly effective principles and techniques.
I beleive they are a database to preserve what you know, not to learn something new.
M.Dasargo
True. I think what forms bring to the table is the value of repetition, repetition, repetition. This also includes the physical building of stamina/endurance. They also allow one to work on the technical aspects or movements without needing a partner to train with. To me, forms start to loose their luster when their purpose is simply to look good or flashy.
Remember
No matter how cool you think it is to perform a certain form- most girls will think you’re a **** if you try to show it to them. 
Personally I think forms are a portion of the formula:
There are forms- teach rudimentary movements, concepts, body co-ordination, attributes etc…
Then the forms concepts have to be trained with an partner to get the body mechanics and interaction with another skilled practitioner.
Then they have to be tested in the ring or full contact with a partner or opponent that is training relistically. (not saying to perform a form in the ring, but the mechanics and concepts have to be exprienced)
As for mutations I think they exist based on experience levels and interactions that the practitioner has had. (of course as stated before memory is 1 variable for this)
But also whats wrong with changing up some of the movements? Just as long as it doesnt violate the principle and concepts that are being trained in the form…
I’ve seen countless variations, but I feel they exist for a reason.
Just my take on this.
[QUOTE=Codeboy;938855]To me, forms start to loose their luster when their purpose is simply to look good or flashy.[/QUOTE]
I say the flashier the better- I like the forms where you can fly- like siu fu yin, Ji kun, double dagger… heck- it’s probably why tong long chit don is my fav. pure mantis form- no flying kicks, but a lot of movement… even goon le guan, lok hop darn dao… it’s all about lots-o-movement.
For me the forms aspect is to enjoy the movement… move fast and fly.
[QUOTE=MightyB;944993]I say the flashier the better- I like the forms where you can fly- like siu fu yin, Ji kun, double dagger… heck- it’s probably why tong long chit don is my fav. pure mantis form- no flying kicks, but a lot of movement… even goon le guan, lok hop darn dao… it’s all about lots-o-movement.
For me the forms aspect is to enjoy the movement… move fast and fly.[/QUOTE]
I would agree with that in all cases being present inless “eating at a Chinese buffet or a pizza” before practice. Then I’m struggling just to do a push kick.