Attention all Chang style practitioners read:
My Favorite!
From Chicione’s website:
“Last but not least is David Lin of New York City, who makes all kinds of claims of skill and knowledge. One of the claims that specifically upsets G.M. Chicoine is Lin’s claim of being qualified and skilled in Shuai Chiao. Mr. Lin had only six months of basic training in Shuai Chiao under Jeng Hsing Peng, the most capable instructor of the Shuai Chiao throws and Chin Na alive today. Mr. Lin is a perfect example of a martial artist attempting to sound credible and skilled based upon the fact that he is Chinese. In fact, Lin has no skill and merely associates with a lot of others like himself in an attempt to gain notoriety.”
David Lin
I know David personally. I know my teacher, Master Fu Shu Yun, thinks highly of him and he is very repectful of her. I know through my teacher, that David studied with Master Chang Deng Sheng. He studied some with Master Fu but spent more time with Master Chang.
I think highly of Mrs. Fu, she is quite a wonderfull person and I’m sure she would never say anything bad about anyone. I doubt however if she ever actually saw Lin Chih Young recieve lessons from Chang! I do know that she claims Chang as a classmate. I believe it was Lin who introduced himself to her as a Chang student. By the way does she still train the rare Taichi-Bagua system?
Master Fu
Not only “claims” Chang as a classmate, she and Chang were close personal friends. You can doubt whatever you want, but ask Changs friends, family and students, if you know any, about their relationship. You will believe whatever you want about David Lin. Master Fu acknowledges him as a student of Changs as she acknowledges Frank Demaria as his student. They knew each others students well, especially the good ones. She has never mentioned this Gene Chicone person.
Bagua Tai Chi
I’m sorry, I didn’t answer your question. Master Fu has had some trouble with her hip recently and is being treated. I don’t think that she is back training yet. To my knowledge she hasn’t passed on the Bagua Tai chi yet to anyone. She promised me she was coming back next year and then we will start.
Mark, relax I know about their freindship and their studies under a number of famous teachers, you can even add Han Ching Tan, of Long-fist fame as another classmate!
Each one however really “Got In” with a teacher that the others did’nt, so since each is famous for a different line of CMA, Its the Nanjing Institute that connects them. I should of just mentioned that Mrs. Fu was a classmate of Chang’s at Nanjing and not in Hopei province where he learned Kuai Jiao with his father in law.
I’m sorry my post came off the wrong way. I will try to express myself better in the future.
Hey Self Thinker
No sweat, I get a little ticklish when people that I know get slammed. What are your links with my teacher? Many in this country never heard of her. I went to Chicone’s site and looked at the photo section, she is in the Koushung photo in the center. Have a great weekend!
chang??
Who is the Chang that you were mentioning??
Hi,
this controversy about who’s legitimate in the shuaijiao lineage has been going on since Chang died. I quote from an IKF issue (February 1988):
“When shuai chiao grandmaster Chang Dung Sheng died in 1986, he failed to name a successor. When an American [Gene L. Chicoine] assumed control, Taiwan was pleased. Ironically, the objections came from America.”
Mr. Chicoine is also referred to in the article as (at one time being) Chang’s “then top student.”
This says some fine things for Mr. Chicoine. However, remembering that the article appears in 1988, the authors go on to say “Two years ago, Chang Dung Sheng held a hammergrip on his style of shuai chiao (Chinese wrestling). Nicknamed the “flying butterfly,” Chang was considered one of the fiercest fighters in Chinese history and spent the 20th century unbeaten. As shuai chiao’s grandmaster, Chang was leader, father, and guiding light to 39,000 practitioners, 38,500 or 99 percent of whom were of Taiwanese descent.” In the next paragraph, it reads: “Enter Gene L. Chicoine, a blustery Midwesterner with Karate and goju-ryu experience. Sensing his days were numbered, Chang took a liking to Chicoine, an ex-deputy sheriff turned businessman, and immediately began the arguous process of training him as a possible sucessor. Chicoine was Chang’s first personal student in a decade.” …
“…in June, 1986, tragedy struck the shuai chiao community when Chang succumbed to cancer at the age of 76. At the time, Chicoine was first vice president of the International Shuai-Chiao association (ISCA). He quickly stepped into the grandmaster’s shoes and began running the ISCA from its headquarters in Modagore, Ohio.”
Mr. DeMaria and Mr. Chema, and Mr. Weng, who all claimed to have studied with Chang longer than Mr. Chicoine objected to his assuming presidency. Chang apparently believed that the hope for shuai jiao was in the west, especially America, and he put the Taipei Shuai Chiao Association and its affiliates under the control of the ISCA. Anyway, people can make up their own minds about who deserves to be grandmaster or who studied the longest or who was the most skilled, etc. There are shuai chiao competitions every year in the States. But, imho, sorting out these things is not even the point.
Finally, I just wanted to say a couple of things about training time. It is easy to say that someone “only studied with someone for a few years” and then assume that he didn’t learn much. This, IMHO, is a western thing. Progress and accomplishment depend on practice-time, not class-time. Chang, for example, --according to Mr. Chicoine’s website-- studied with 70 different teachers. Chang also taught a style of tjq, learned from Gen. Li. Other people mentioned in this thread also studied with many teachers. Indeed, Mr. Chicoine himself was a karate and goju practitioner before he met Chang. So, I don’t really understand the complaint that Mr. Weng studied judo previously, etc. Oh well, I feel all the people mentioned are doing what they think to be honorable things in honor of their master’s memory.
Respects,
Esteban
Hey Mark, I met your teacher a number of times in the early eighties, she personally told me she was classmates with Han and Chang at Nanjing! A couple of my classmates in Shaolin Chang Chuan and Shuai Jiao were showing support for her by taking seminars on Hsing-I, there were other martial artist there as well including Tom Bisio of Pekiti-Tersia (Kali), and David Lin (Chih Young) of just about everything including AikiKai. A few years later in the late 80’s she also did a demo for the International Tai-chi Institue, Lin your friend was there he was just a spectator. It would be a few more years before his name became mud in certain Taiwan Shuai Jiao circles. Sorry to speak badly of your friend to you, but I know a lot more I could’nt say without betraying the trust, between many sifu and myself. I can only say MONEY talks.
Self Thinker
I remember Tom Bisio from back at that time, I took a “hit medicine” course from him in either the late 80’s or early 90’s. As far as David Lin is concerned, I personally cannot attest to his martial talent.I’ve never seen him perform. The only thing that I know is that he did study with Chang and treated my teacher well, so lets leave it at that. Did you take the Hsing I class at the womens martial arts school? I forget the name of it.
Bleecker St.?
No, at the time, I had so much to work on already. I would of definately have recommended her! I hope she feels better soon and continues to teach, we dont have too many treasures like her left. I’m sure she could fill books. The best to her and you in your studies. STF
wheres our history
I dont mean to get off the subject but seeing is how there seems to be a lot of shuai chiao people here, is it possible someone could help me find out where the shuai chiao in our system comes from? our 2nd generation master Feng Hua Yi added it to 8 step and was a master of the chinese wrestling but I never found out who his teacher was. This information would be extremly helpful if anyone could give me these history details… thank you so much
I doubt I can help, but…
Earth Dragon, if you can email me at: MonkeySlap1@Home.com
and can tell me where and when your style was formulated, I might (long shot) be able to find someone who knows.
Keep in mind that Shuai Chiao was a common sport in North China for a long, long time. There are literally thousands of players, and it is not uncommon to have someone learn the sporting version casually.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
thank you mr monkey any help would be great, I feel as if our 2nd generation master was not just a practioner of the sporting side of shuai chiao but a master of the actual combat fighting skill. I say this because of the shaui chiao I’ve seen seems more like judo (gentle way) were ours is more combative and much more aggressive usually breaking, ripping or tearing at your opponent before the throw, not usually found in the sport side of the art, but again I could be wrong. We do use 40 different throws (not sure if thats the standard) but extremly curious to find out, thank you for your help
If you have a list of throws (the chinese characters would help) that might help.
Actually, the sporting Shuai Chiao can get pretty nasty. Most sport players also know the ‘black hand’ (no, they are not Italian).
There is a reason most Chinese ‘boxers’ stayed clear of ‘wrestlers’. It’s nasty stuff, and you have to be really on your game to beat a good wrestler, even a sporting one.
One guy even described the street Shuai Chiao matches in China as ‘kilngon-like’. I loved that line.
Ah, heck. I digress. I’ll see what I can do.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
Its no surprise that even sports shuaijiao stylists are still a force to reckon with. Unlike typical chinese martial arts, sports shuaijiao learn to hone and apply their techniques against a resisting opponent constantly. And I’d imagine the elite sports shuaijiao players would have the chance to train and test themselves out with other grappling styles like judo and wrestling and even competing in mixed styles arena as in sanda. No wonder they’re good.
dear monkey slap
here are the forty we have, I do have them in chinese but I dont know how to type them onto here. Some of them my be wrong becuse my teacher taught them to us in chinese and we have to translate them our sleves so here it goes
GO - CHUAN DANG
SWAI - SO BEI
KO - SO HUH
BOW - SAN BA BIE
CHING - ZA BA BIE
SHAW - JIA LIANG TI
SWA - CHEN DI TI
CHEIDA - SAN BA DENG
LABIE - XIA BA DENG
BUNG TIAO- FEN SOU KANG
DING KUAI- LUO SOU BIE
DIAO LOU - ZUA WAI CHUAI
AN CHI - HUN TUI KANG
TWAI DUNG- TUAN DANG KOW
YA TIAO - MA BOU TI
TAN HING - KAU TUI DI
JIAN TUI - XUEN BU TI
DA HUH - QUI TUI DA HUH
CHAN TUI- LOW
LIKANG - FAN TI
dear monkey slap
please respond to my last post, I will have to admitt I am a little pretentous about diplaying our throws to the world, so I would like to erase them as soon as I hear from you … thank you again for your help on this matter.