Go ahead and erase’em.
I’m checking this out…
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
No Secret In Names!
ED, most of these names are quite known in Taiwan where both Chang’s Shuai Jiao and 8 step mantis are popular. You should know that it would be difficult to prove connections, since a lot of teachers cross trained in Nationalist China and in Taiwan. Even teachers like Jeng, Hsing Peng of Chang’s Shuai Jiao studied 8 step mantis and he and others in Shuai Jiao taught many present day teachers of 8 step mantis, among others, Chang’s wrestling! Sometimes in exchange.
As for the names, I can make out some of them like “Ma Bow Tei” (Ma Bu Ti), but you really need to know chinese characters to get a clue as to what the technique may look like. For example, “Diao Lou”, the character Diao refers to an action like that of an eagle stretching his claws out to hook a fish in the water, while Lou is the pulling in action he makes after the catch. But to make it easy for westerners, someone decided on the term “diagonal pulling” ?
Hope this helps, STF
Yea, I agree Self Thinking…
I was hoping to look for linguistic similarities to draw a general conclusion. But without the characters, it seems unlikely.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
I do have them in chinese, however I do not have a scanner, I do speak some mandarin and was able to translate them to at least an english phonectic spelling, like wades/giles but as you know some sounds in mandarin have no english spelling. I do know that diao lou is a double hand pull down, and as you said, self thinker but I thought ma bou ti was spelled with a (TI) foot sweep… horse stance foot sweep but again some speeling is impossible. to help with a date the 2nd generation master feng hua yi learned shuai chiao in apox. 1750 or so , hope that helps thanks again guys…
PS. that would be in gimore county henan province R.O.C, not taiwan
hmmm?
Why spend hours a day for two years just to attain Iron Vest if it won’t even allow me to take shots to the groin and throat?
The Juko kai willt each you combat chi breathing in a few seminars :-/.. scary stuff eh? The groin shots are real…iron vest seems outdated.
Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..
ED, more specific: Ma(Sweep) Bu(Step) Ti(Kick)
Hope this helps, STF
Rolling Elbow, while Iron Vest is part of CMA, its not specific to Shuai Jiao (Wrestling). If Chicione has it then maybe you can send some Juko guys to visit him and test each others ability to take shots. I for one am not interested in that subject right now, I am interested in the controversy. Thats the thread we’re on, I do know that neither Chicione or Dr. S of Juko Kai would agree to take an Aids infected needle puncture to test their “Iron”. Kind of puts it in perspective, Do you not agree?
STF
dear self thinking follower, I have always known (mabou) to be translated as stand like horse or “horsestance”, and (TI) to be a front sweep. I’m not sure on your translation. I am not chinese and only learned to speak mandarin in the past 6 years,so I may be wrong but that is what I belive to be correct.
ED, I’ve always understood it to be the same Ma as in “Ma Mei” with Ma refering to a sweeping or mopping action. Ma (Mopping) Mei (Eyebrows), if I recall my lessons in Ma Bu Ti you mop the back of your opponents neck, pulling his head forward as you foot sweep kick his advancing step. In Ma Mei you mop the front of his forehead at the eyebrows back. There is a lot lost in translation but generally the character refers to a mopping/sweeping action. It could be that someone used a different character along the way. This is understandable since most terms where spoken and not always written. In fact I do agree that most CMA experts in the past where somewhat illiterate. Of course having been born here, I too, am illiterate in classical chinese and depend on others to decipher the old characters. Even my wife who was born and raised in China sometimes needs help since she grew up using the communists new simplified characters. Kung fu is not the only cultural treasure they have been losing in China!
Chioine did study Goju Ryu in his youth. He began at age 16 while part of the U.S. occupational forces in Japan.
However, he had been a student of the Chinese Martial Arts for a good 25+ years before he ever met GM Chang.
STF
thanks for the clarification on that. I do beleive our throws are the same, in ma bou ti we grab the side of the neck pull down which causes the back leg to lift, we grab the weightless leg and sweep the foundation leg in a clock wise direction. If you wouldnt mind please check out my website and click the photos page under throws, bung tiao and ma bou ti are pictured there, let me know if this is the same throw as you use.. or at least the effect on the opponent is the same for its hard to see with a still picture.. thank you…
Hi Earth Dragon,
does the sequence of throws remind you of any movements in tjq?
Best,
Esteban
ED, from what your post discribes, yes! but I dont usually lift his leg with my non mopping hand.
[This message was edited by Self-Thinking Follower on 08-07-01 at 03:50 PM.]
STF
OK youve got me confused…in your throw what does the left or non mopping hand do? as you can see in the photo we use the left hand to lift as we sweep to spin opponent in C,W direction. How can you complete the throw without thew use of the leg as a lever?
estaban , not sure if I understand your question please explain… thanx again for all your help
ED
There are a number of ways to hold, I generally execute “ma bu ti” after smothering a right arcing punch or in answer to a right hold. In each case I hold on to his arm while mopping his neck forward and around me (because my footwork causes me to turn 90 degrees) causing him to shift his weight onto his front leg which is trying to regain balance by bracing with the foot. Of course just as he places the foot down the kick (foot-sweep) catches him and the combined mopping (The body follows the head), My twisting shift (ala el matador) and his interupted stepping by my foot sweep cause him to be propelled (Shuai) into the floor.
I’m sure this discription may be more confusing, so lets just say they’re a number of different variations on the techniques execution.
One thing though, we did learn a ground-fighting subsystem and we have also encountered dog boxers who are very good at riding throws. Having your arm in between a dog boxers legs can be dangerous!
The throw application in Snake creeps down, found in many arts and called the “firemans carry” here in the west is found in Shuai Chiao and taught, but late Master Chang did not emphasize it for this reason; “snap”.
STF
We too have ground fighting (low mantis) used by my kung fu brother joel sutton in ultimate fighting championship #6 and #7 which he won both matches with a combination of low mantis and shuai chiao very effective for in or fighting from a fallen postition. The throw you were talking about firemans carry thats like chuan dang, but as in the tai chi application Ive found it to be more effective if you lock the elbow straight over your shoulder to avoid your opponent bending choking or holdiong on as you shoot between their legs. You seem to know alot about shuai chiao, could you help me find out from where our lineage came from? it was added to our system in around 1700 by master feng hua yi our 2nd generation in 8 step but in our history does not explain where or from whom he master the shuai chiao style, and I am trying to figure this out. an info would be helpful thankyou …
ED
Your right on the money, about locking his elbow! As for finding out about your lineage, I’ll ask my mentor when he visits from Taiwan. I must say, however, that finding out information from the 1700s, that not recorded will probably be next to impossible.
STF
that’s the whole problem, we have our history from 8 step founder Chiang hua long in praying mantis right up to date , and we also have our wu tai chi history, but I do not have who feng hua yi studied under in eagle claw or shaui chiao. I am writing a book and having one heack of a time tracing back accurat documentation from 1644… its not as easy as I thought it would be… but thanx for your help and wise words…