short strikes of Shaolin and Mantis

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

In reply to ba kao of Mantis Cool.

In the oldest existing book of empty hand pugilism from Shaolin temple(which differs from modern shaolin) are listed, under the “SHAOLIN SHORT STRIKES BODY METHOD” 8 sharp points that are called ba feng.

We can say that this is another way of saying;
8 elbows
8 shorts
or
8 fists.

The list in Shaolin is;

  1. hand
  2. elbow
  3. shoulder
  4. buttocks
  5. forearm
  6. knee
  7. leg
  8. feet

As it says there, these are the “sharp” points that are used to attack the opponent’s “blunt” points.

This manual also contains a section on questions and answers one of which relates to the application of short strikes.
It states;

“How can short strikes defeat longfist?
Because short forces can easily enter.”

following the simple answer is a rhyming sonnet which explains an aspect of fighting.

“When the opponent uses longfist you respond with short strikes and get into him easily,
You can surprise him by making him fall or by moving him,
Use inner binding to open up the left and right corner.
Use outer binding to find the opponents fatal point.”

I regret that I can not show the beuaty of the poem in this translation.

BTW, fatal point means the point which causes death.
In this shaolin’s " three battlefield essentials" the third essential is “show no mercy”

It would seem that the blessing of the Buddha was saved until after the destruction of your enemies.

2

Eight in Mantis

In Mantis the term 8 sharp(ba feng) is not used.
Instead we have terms such as;
8 elbows
8 shorts
8 fists.
Also, other numbers such as 12 fists and 7* come up with similar meanings.
More on other numbers later.

Under 8 short we have;

  1. head fist
  2. buttock fist
  3. neck fist
  4. chest fist
    5.6. 2 knees
    7.8. 2 elbows

This version is the most detailed that I have seen and matches the writing style of 7 long as well as other old aspects of Mantis.
For this reason I suspect it to be the oldest version in Mantis of 8 Short.
Usually 8 short follows 7 long and we have the saying “7 long 8 short” to refer to some aspects of PM.

But rarely does anyone ever go into the details of what that is exactly.
For example, in one of my old PM schools we had to give examples of 7 long and 8 short that we had observed within the forms.
And yet I don’t think any of the definitions of short we gave ever included butt, neck and chest. maybe someone said head though.

Since the above version of 8 short is, as I believe, the oldest in Mantis that means that it also predates the divide of Mantis styles(which is very recent anyway) such as;
7*
8 Step
Mimen
Meihua
Taiji
6 He
etc.

Li Kunshan’s version of 8 Short is different in name, but similar in purpose.
Since he studied directly under Jiang Hualong he is closley related to stylists of;
Mimen
Meihua
8 Step
Taiji.

His version of 8 short which I understand to be similar or the same to other Meihua stylists is as follows.

  1. head elbow
  2. mouth elbow
  3. neck elbow
  4. shoulder elbow
  5. rib elbow
  6. buttocks elbow
  7. knee elbow
  8. back elbow

For those who have seen the Taiwan survey of Mantis in Taiwan it includes my shrfu, Shr Zhengzhong, and uncle, Yang Fengshr, performing most of these elbows from the grasping cicada maneuvre in both rapid succession and slow motion.

To my knowledge it is the only public representation anywhere of the application of 8 elbows and sets a good precedent(in my opinion) of showcasing aspects of Mantis that may otherwise become extinct.

3

Tainan,
excellent information as always, you have set the bar so high, I think you have spoiled us and now we expect nothing less. LOL

I do have a question for you to clairify, this talk about body contacts short and sharp, explain to me the difference between this and 8 steps (Ba Duan) that uses similar striking areas body contacts and targets. thank you ED

4

24 Essentials

Hi Tainan,

Thanks for the in detailed post. Here’re some thoughts.

A) I have a copy of Bak Mei (White Eyebrow) book that’s written during the 70’s (?). In this book, there is a chapter mentioning traditional martial art theories in general. It mentioned 24 essentials In TCMA - 4 strikes, 8 methods, and 12 forms.

4 strikes or attacks are: Hand strikes (Da), Kicking (Ti), Seizing (Na), Throws (Shuai). In Longfist system, there is Dien striking with fingers, fist, feet, etc… instead of Ti. Dien and Da are grouped as 36 heavenly spirits; while, Na Shuai are grouped as 72 earthly demons. That’s a total of 108. 4 is also a representation of the 4 changing seasons which is also non changing in a year.

8 Methods are: 5 faculties of actions plus spirit (Jing Shen), fitness (Qi Li), conditioning (Gong). The 8 methods are a representation of the 8 directions. It is spatial references and the functions of the faculties. Most important of all, it is about where the external and the internal meets.

12 forms or dispositions which are expressions in martial arts movements such as moving, stillness, rising, falling, etc… These expressions are timing related. 12 is the number of hours and months in a year, etc… in Chinese calendar.

The number 24 is also the Jie Qi which are 24 markers of seasonal changes including the equinox. These 24 essentials varies from system to system and school to school. Some don’t follow precisely but would have similar 4, 8 (some change this to 10), and 12.

B) I think the 8 methods and 12 forms in mantis is expressed in 3 ways.

  1. 8 Stances and 12 keywords
  2. 8 hard and 12 fluid (possible Ming dynasty military influence.)
  3. 8 shorts and 12 coiling elbows.

All 3 ways are not just concepts. They are actually techniques as well, which in my mind is unique to mantis. BTW, 8 methods in mantis is also Ba Da Ba Bu Da

C) There are many versions of 8 Shorts. Basically, there are 2 approaches of explanation. One is anatomically and the other is technically.

D) Shaolin Authentics actually uses 6 (fanche lulu), 7 longs, 8 shorts, 9 (81 transformations) and 12 fists as the number system goes. Numbers 6-9 are also I Ching numerology as well (see my previous post’s analogy.)

E) There is an entry “Essential of Short Strikes” in Shr Zhengzhong’s book that has the equivant of the 12 forms. Tainan has been working on the translation of a different version on that which he posted a thread on my forum. There is a more detailed explanation in Tainan’s version in Mantis term.

F) It is believe that some of the masters in PM were quite versed in the I Ching. This is evident in form such as Luanjie (the openning segment) handed down by GM Liang Xuexiang.

Anyway, 8 and 12 expressions in mantis are not just somethings that are made up. It is the result of deliberate thoughts.

Mantis108

5

Mantis 108,
my question is open to you also, between you, tainan and Steve Cottrell the knowledge you 3 have seems to be endless and I always look forward to reading all of your posts.

6

ED,
8 short and 8 sharp are similar in meaning.
It seems that different masters named the specific parts differently though the idea is about the same.

Mantis108,
It seems that 8 and 12 are popular numbers.
It would be easy to use another number say for 12 soft for example and call it 13 and just add another move.

7

12 fists

12 fists of Mantis and Shaolin.
In the manual that both Shaolin and Mantis shares is contained the title,
“Twelve fists of the Body
Dodging Deceiving Both Hands Fastening”

The Shaolin version I have seen only contains this outline, while the Mantis versions I have seen all have a similar text.

The 12 punches(shr er chuei) listed are.

  1. head fist
    2,3. two neck
    4,5. two elbows
    6,7. two hands
  2. buttocks fist
    9,10. two knees
    11, 12. Two feet

By adding the number two to some select body parts they have written practically the same list as Shaolin’s 8 sharp and Mantis’ 8 Short.

So why does this list exist side by side with the Mantis list of 8 short?
We can speculate and make educated guess’s, but no absolute answer presents itself, only probable answers which we may discuss later.

I would like to hear some possibilities from those who have the manuscripts containing both 8 short and 12 chuei.

Another interesting facet about the above list is that if we take away the number"two" which is included in the Chinese, we come up with a list of 7 short body parts.

In fact, some have stated that the 7* mantis style takes its name from a list “such as” this.
Though I have no facts or proof to say this is true.
In fact I have a fair amount of evidence to say that it isn’t true which I will present at a later date.

8

Numerology and Tanglang

108,

You wrote:

8 and 12 expressions in mantis are not just somethings that are made up. It is the result of deliberate thoughts.

My guess is you would have been fighting nausea over my last article in mantis quarterly, ha ha.

I agree that these numbers mean so much in any chinese art or culture (from daojiao and fojiao to hei shehui and gongfu). They are far from random and are pregnant with meaning. However, is there a possibility that perhaps the numerology coveniently fit the system rather than the system being originally designed to fit to the numerology? Afterall, Chinese numerology has almost every number assigned relevance. Perhaps adherence to such number formulas has even confined or corrupted the system in some instances.

For example; has anyone here noticed an almost riculous or superflous technique or method either added on or doubled up just to make one of these vital totals?

‘We have to make the total 12 so lets repeat technique number 4 and slightly change the name’,

‘We need to end on the 3rd, 5th or 7th and we’re one short so lets do the same technique as found in every basic routine of Tanglang and give it a never been used before and never to be used again name to make up the total’,

‘We’re two short of eight so lets repeat the last technique twice’,

and so and so forth…

O.K, please pick your self off the ground now if your laughing too hard. Is this not a possibility? I have seen old masters laughing similarly trying to make sense of such material.

Having spat all this negativity, I do of course acknowledge that some very important number theory did certainly predate the system and were purposely incorporated/imported either at the onset or at least very early on. Which were there from the onset or near enough to it? I cannot say but would speculate that it was the generic 5 elements, 6 harmonies and 7 stars.

Mr conspiracy theory :wink:

9

Hi EarthDragon

Sorry about the late reply. I had some thoughts about Brendan’s post that I don’t want to lost my train of thoughts so I made a reply to his post first.

Anyway, I truelly thank you for the support. I am sure there are many high calibur people that frequent this board. I just share very little that I know and hope to “toss the brick to entice the jade.” :wink: Besides, I am very happy to return the favors that many great practitioners of Tanglang so generously and patiently share their knowledge and material with me. KFO mantis community is one of the finest if the greatest bunch of Kung Fu people.

As for the 8 shorts in 8 steps, I am not familiar with it at all. I have not seen any material regarding this in 8 steps. May be those who are well versed in 8 steps will open this to discussion? It is not a easy subject for many because traditionally the closed quarter stuff in PM are highly guarded.

In this day and age, I feel there is a pressing need for the real Kung Fu stuff to be out in the open or else we will always be the laughing stock of the MA world. :frowning:

Mantis108

10

Mantis 108,
We do have whats called (Ba Duan) 8 body contacts:

  1. FOREARMS
  2. FRONT LEGS
  3. BACK LEGS
  4. HEAD
  5. SHOULDERS
  6. HIPS
  7. BACK
  8. BUTTOX

However I was just trying to figure out if they were what you and Tainan were talking about. There are short range strikes utilized when the arms are locked and or tied up in combat.

11

8 Short Attacks in Qixing Tanglang of the Lin Jingshan lineage utilise the following (but are listed more specifically than this. as mentioned the writing style is the same as the 7 long):

  1. Tou Chui
    Head strike

  2. Bi Chui
    shoulder strike

  3. Kua Chui
    Hip strike

  4. Xiong Chui
    Chest/Breast strike

5-6) Shuang Zhou Chui
Paired/double/both elbows

7-8) Shuang Xi Chui
Paired/double/both knees

Neck and breast is where we differ. We seem to be more ‘breast men’
The method applying these ‘Chui’ is described in the actual list. the above only illustrates the part used to impact.

Li Kunshan’s version of 8 Short is different in name, but similar in purpose.

His version of 8 short which I understand to be similar or the same to other Meihua stylists is as follows.

  1. head elbow
  2. mouth elbow
  3. neck elbow
  4. shoulder elbow
  5. rib elbow
  6. buttocks elbow
  7. knee elbow
  8. back elbow

Funnily enough, virtually all of these are practiced in our Ba Kao, apart from ‘kou’. We use it in application but not in a drill. Which character for neck is used? I must say we do not use neck, unless it is referring to upper chest. When they use ‘Zhou’ in this case, I think it more means something like ‘appendage’ or ‘body segment’ rather than ‘elbow’. 108, what do you say on this? My classical chinese is non existant.

Was this imported from Shaolin or at least influenced? In my opinion, probably.

BT
(constructive mood)

12

BT(CM),
Your #2 bi chuei I would assume is forearm?
Is this bi a different character?
Or do you apply/translate it differently?
I don’t see why you called it bi and not jian.

Your #3 kua chuei most likely meens the same as my tun chuei.
You think?

Most of the strikes are defined and neck is defined as the top of the shoulder.
You actually have the manuscript in your possession with this definition.
The bo character for neck is used.

The Shaolin manuscrip the one with ba feng/ 8 sharp points, lists 8 ways to use the shoulder, some of which we might call neck, chest, or back.

For Likunshan’s mouth it is the zui, as in zui ba, character, not kou.

As for zhou, you are correct it means sharp point.
If I remeber correctly it is used for some spear strikes too.
I would have to go double check though.

Anyway, I can not find zhou to mean sharp point in anything old Chinese, it would have to be one of those odd technical terms peculiar to MA, of which there are quite a few.

13

Our man in Tainan,

Your #2 bi chuei I would assume is forearm?
Is this bi a different character?
Or do you apply/translate it differently?
I don’t see why you called it bi and not jian.

It is actually: Kao Shen Bi Chui
Bi here means arm or more precisely upper arm (though usually Bi is just arm). It refers to the arm and shoulder in this case.

Your #3 kua chuei most likely meens the same as my tun chuei.
You think?

Dun Shen Kua Chui, It is the same just different romanisation.

Most of the strikes are defined and neck is defined as the top of the shoulder.

got ya.

You actually have the manuscript in your possession with this definition.
The bo character for neck is used.

Ha ha, I better read it sometime!

The Shaolin manuscrip the one with ba feng/ 8 sharp points, lists 8 ways to use the shoulder, some of which we might call neck, chest, or back.

I agree with this as I have been taught something very similar.

In a rush and have to split. catch up soon…

BT

14

I am glad I asked for clarification on numbers 2 and 3.
I don’t think there is enough room in the mantis world for both of our manuscripts.
I will write out the complete list now.

1.Ying mien tou chuei
To the face head strike.

  1. kao shen tun chuei
    Lean the body buttock strike.

I suspect my version may be wrong here.
The only support of mine being correct is the meaning of #4(follows).
You have kao shen bi chuei.
Which means lean the body shoulder strike.
It suddenly dawns on me that yours is 98% more logical.
Tie men kao be-stick to the door lean on the wall comes to mind.

The funny thing is that the character for bi and tun are somewhat alike.

  1. Dun shen bo chuei.
    crouch the body neck strike.
    It would be odd if yours was right for #2 and mine for 3#.
    Crouch is important for the neck strike more than for the waist strike I think.
    Also, the neck strike comes up in several other versions.

Funny thing, in the explanations that follow there is no explanation in my version of #3.
How about yours?

#4 nien na xiung chuei.
stick and grasp chest fist.
The explanations also put the shoulder with this one.

And the last four get the short,
shuang xi liang zhou.

15

Jackpot!

Wow, very very nice exchange indeed.

As far as I am aware, we are pretty much looking at Cui Shoushan (1890-1969 CE) a.k.a Cui Pengnian’s version of 8 Shorts. His Quanpu IMHO is very similar to Wang Yifu’s article which basically is the Shaolin Authentics. It is very interesting that Lin Jingshan’s version is so close.

Anyway, I have seen this version of 8 shorts on a Japanese Mantis Site, which seems to llist material of Sun De, who also has a series of VCD out. I believe Sun De is of Cui Shoushan’s lineage.

1.Ying mien tou chuei
To the face head strike.

this part is the same as Sun De’s as well as Brendan’s Tou Chui
(Head strike).

2. kao shen tun chuei
Lean the body buttock strike.

Same as Sun De but different from Brendan’s Bi Chui
(shoulder strike). Sun De’s #3 matches the Bi Chui but the text is Dun Shen Bi Chui.

[b]I suspect my version may be wrong here.
The only support of mine being correct is the meaning of #4(follows).
You have kao shen bi chuei.
Which means lean the body shoulder strike.
It suddenly dawns on me that yours is 98% more logical.
Tie men kao be-stick to the door lean on the wall comes to mind.

The funny thing is that the character for bi and tun are somewhat alike.[/b]

I will save this for later.

3. Dun shen bo chuei.
crouch the body neck strike.

This is different from both versions. Sun De has Dun Shen Bi Chui (crouch the body forearm/wrist strike. Brendan’s Kua Chui
(Hip strike) is Sun De’s #2 Kao Shen Tun Chui.

[b]It would be odd if yours was right for #2 and mine for 3#.
Crouch is important for the neck strike more than for the waist strike I think.
Also, the neck strike comes up in several other versions.

Funny thing, in the explanations that follow there is no explanation in my version of #3.
How about yours?[/b]

I will save this for later.

#4 nien na xiung chuei.
stick and grasp chest fist.
The explanations also put the shoulder with this one.

All 3 versions seem to be the same here.

and the last four get the short,
shuang xi liang zhou.

Sun De’s version is just Shuang Zhou Shuang Xi. Brendan’s Shuang Zhou Chui (Paired/double/both elbows) and Shuang Xi Chui (Paired/double/both knees) still use the Chui but that’s minor detail.

more later…

Mantis108

16

We have to take into account that Cui and Lin are from different styles. There would be stylistic differences. So there is essentially no right or wrong list of 8 shorts. The lists are simply expressions of the style.

The 3 lists are so close that we have to consider the possibility that they are from the same source. But there are “individuality”.

Having that in mind, we can go on a look at the comments.

<<<<2. kao shen tun chuei
Lean the body buttock strike.

I suspect my version may be wrong here.
The only support of mine being correct is the meaning of #4(follows).
You have kao shen bi chuei.
Which means lean the body shoulder strike.
It suddenly dawns on me that yours is 98% more logical.
Tie men kao be-stick to the door lean on the wall comes to mind.>>>

I think Brendan’s “breast man” analogy is a good one. I believe that Jiang Hualong was a short and stocky man. It would seem that his style is quite up close and personal. So using the hip/buttock strike is logical even adventageous to his physique. I often think of Tie Men Kao Be as a long fist terminology. I make the distinction between Tie Kao and Bang Tie. IMHO there is a slight but significant stylistic and technical difference between the 2 terms.

<<<The funny thing is that the character for bi and tun are somewhat alike.>>>

Can’t say that typo wouldn’t happen but that’s pretty silly mistake if that happens.

<<<3. Dun shen bo chuei.
crouch the body neck strike.
It would be odd if yours was right for #2 and mine for 3#.
Crouch is important for the neck strike more than for the waist strike I think.
Also, the neck strike comes up in several other versions.>>>

I think the Sun De interpretation of this is a strike that of the wrist to the groin which is quite common Meihwa, TJPM, etc… Interestingly though, one would have to crouch somewhat to be able to use the hip strike effectively. The same goes for the shoulder strike (ie crouch & slam into the chest). So…

Mantis108

PS. I think I will open a thread on Zhou. BTW, my article in the upcoming MQ is about using elbow combinations.

17

O.K Kevin, you finally drew it out of me, ha ha…

1- Ying Mian Tou Chui

2- Kao Shen Bi Chui

3- Dun Shen Kua Chui

4- Nian Shou (na) Xiong Chui

5-8 Shuang Xi Liang Zhou Si Chui
(Shuang Qi Shuang Zhou)

bt

BTW- this list comes originally from Fan Xudong via Wang Yongchun.

18

On rechecking the manuscript I don’t think that mine has a typo for using the character for buttocks.

I should note that this is an intellectual conversation on what was originally written.
Since we apply all the different strikes listed.
If we were to make a realistic list of our 8 shorts it would be maybe double that listed.

108, I am quite certain that Brendan and my list are origianlly from the same source.
That must be some time before the creation of the PM prefixes that everyone has these days.
In fact, nowadays if your PM has no prefix you might feel yourself inferior compared to the awe inspiring names of everyone else.

Why Brendan and my list differ I don’t know, but as far as practical application are concerned I think we are on the same page.
So it is just a historical question here which has so far provided some interesting answrs.