[QUOTE=Graham H;1250781]I think if you met both guys and moved around with them a little you would see within seconds which methods work and which methods do not. You should stop thinking that just because somebody was taught by WSL that they are all going to be the same. They are not! It’s very easy to repeat what somebody else has said and show things through a drill or whatever but getting stuck in and sparring with hand, foot, pole and knives takes things to a new level. This test your knowledge on Ving Tsun and also reveals what you can apply and what you can’t! Playing chi sau all day everyday is futile without the rest.[/QUOTE]
Well, I agree with you. It’s only when you test things outside of Chi Sau that you see whether you can ‘transfer’ what you got from Chi Sau training into, say, sparring.
I have no doubt that PB would hand me my arse. Maybe DP would too, but from what I’ve seen and heard, I am willing to concede that PB would hand it to me quicker. 
But is this really just about their understanding of the methods, or due to natural ability? DP knows the system to some depth, it seems to me. But PB may well be the better fighter.
If you were to meet Chris Collins or Maday Norbert, and they proved capable of beating you in sparring, would you say that the LTWT method was therefore better than the PBVT method? I think you would simply say that these two guys were, personally, better than you.
So I agree that things need to be tested outside of Chi Sau in order to establish what skill a person really has… but even then it just shows ‘who’ is better, not necessarily ‘what’ is better/more effective, etc.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1250781]Yes and my opinion is that through hard work and training with many people from all over the place has shown PB what can work and what cannot.[/QUOTE]
For sure, the man has put in years and years of hard training. And has drawn his conclusions. For him, he’s reached an understanding based on this. I’m not arguing that the man has it all wrong, I am just saying that my Sifu too has put in years of hard work, and met many people from many MAs, and he has reached different conclusions.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1250781]He would disagree with you point blank and has done a lot of research with other trained fighters.[/QUOTE]
That’s okay with me. Ernie seems like a nice guy, and he is passionate about how he trains (and what he trains). He can disagree with me if he likes. 
[QUOTE=Graham H;1250781]Becoming sensitive to what an opponent is or isn’t doing is got from years of reactive chi sau - gor sau and sparring practice.[/QUOTE]
I agree.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1250781]It is not made from touching arm methods.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Reactive Chi Sau, Gor Sau and Sparring practice should include Kiu Sau - which encompasses WT’s concepts, methods and strategies. IMO.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1250781]This is the main reason why so many people are ditching their old lineages. They can’t all be wrong mate! That would not make sense.[/QUOTE]
Well, the numbers game is a tricky thing to play. Like I was saying in other threads, I can see and understand why some people might leave their group/organization to train with PB.
Recently I read something by Keith Kernspecht where he stated that 2013 was an amazing year for the EWTO, as it now has more members than ever before in its 40-odd year history. As you know, I am no big fan of what the EWTO teaches today… I positively dislike it :eek:… and so I wouldn’t want to apply your statement, regarding numbers, of “they can’t all be wrong.” There are far more people studying in the EWTO than with PB, sometimes personal choices just don’t make sense - at least to some people.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1250781]Chi Kiu? “sticking bridges” ? :eek::eek::eek::eek:[/QUOTE]
It is a term used in the art. But I would add that this is not/should not be taken to mean prolonged stick, like a fly stuck on fly paper. 
It is referring to bridge contact. It lasts only as long as it needs to last.
In an exchange you’ve either made contact or haven’t. Two ranges. Lei Kiu and Chi Kiu.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1250781]Had Neil not exposed himself in person to our way he would still be none the wiser today. How do you think he would feel if I told him via text that his ideas on Wing Chun (that stem from a son of Yip Man) are flawed? He would react the same way most of you lot do. Of course he would. Fortunately for Neil he discovered his own short comings first and that has led him down a better path.[/QUOTE]
Been there myself, so I feel his pain. But I’ve seen how the training I do now can be used - and not just by my Sifu, but by numerous people within our lineage. Some more talented than others, but all of them training the methods.
But this type of training in the art is not easy to apply - it takes lots of work. People say Wing Chun should be simple, efficient, effective.
I agree, but simple, efficient and effective in its use - in application. Sometimes the training to get there is not so simple - and certainly not easy. Lots of hard work, sweat, bruised ego and bruised bodies.
I walk to work each day and walk through a park where there are a ton of guys doing bodyweight exercises on bars and posts. They make it look really simple. It isn’t, I’ve tried - much to their amusement. When you’ve developed skill in something, doing it always looks simple.