Thanks for the responses.
That answers my question on the styles of the Wing Lam Kwoon. Just one thing, what aspects of the art you crosstrained in do you feel worked best for you?
Xing yi’s power generation, definitely. It’s a very explosive internal style and really made me pay attention to the subtle body movements’ role in linking the whole motion together. BSL’s movements are still smooth on the whole, but I find that now I have more contrast between the light/smooth and the coiling/explosive. For example, the low wrist block followed by high crane at the beginning of BSL #7. Then once I start moving to the left it that form, it becomes more fluid.
Gene may well chime in and tell us that’s wrong, though, so take my posts with a grain of salt. 
Such is the case being the little brother. The road is still very long indeed…
[QUOTE=The Xia;714270]How does your sifu run his kwoon? Hung Gar and Bak Siu Lam are an interesting combination. I’m interested to hear how Wing Lam teaches them together. Also, what aspects of both arts work well together for you?[/QUOTE]
Strange enough many of the Masters of Northern Style I meet were experts in Hung Ga or Choi Li Fut. My Master for instance was a high level exponent of Preying Mantis and Hung Ga before he was exposed to Bak Siu Lum. According to my teacher Hong Kong was a rough place so you learned what you could to defend yourself. In my group we practice Iron Wire, Taming the Tiger and Tiger Crane right along with our Northern sets. I do not see any contrasting elements of the styles and as a matter of fact I find they complement one another. Like Swiss Army knife they constitute a series of useful tools for the practitioner to wield at a critical juncture.
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t Hung one of the root essences of Northern Shaolim or was that the Shaolim Hong (red) Fist???
Peace
[QUOTE=Ravenshaw;716167]Xing yi’s power generation, definitely. It’s a very explosive internal style and really made me pay attention to the subtle body movements’ role in linking the whole motion together. BSL’s movements are still smooth on the whole, but I find that now I have more contrast between the light/smooth and the coiling/explosive. For example, the low wrist block followed by high crane at the beginning of BSL #7. Then once I start moving to the left it that form, it becomes more fluid..[/QUOTE]
Xing yi appears to be one of the latter essences of BSL as I see a lot of it in #9 and a bit in #10. Sik Fat seems to be a collection of the ‘most respected’ techniques of other styles. From my personal experience with the BSL system I see many “solutions” to “martial problems” such as what if he uses Bagua or CLF etc. I see many shuffling movements that would cut off a skilled circle walker, stright line attacks that would intercept circular hands and legs and Circular defensives that would neutralize strong direct angles. Is this from the Master’s experience at the Institute in Nanjing or do these forms and associated techniques predate the Master Ku?
Peace
[QUOTE=Lokhopkuen;716231]Xing yi appears to be one of the latter essences of BSL as I see a lot of it in #9 and a bit in #10. [/QUOTE]
I learned the basic 5 Elements before I learned 9 or 10. So when I learned 9, I was immediately struck by the xing yi stuck in there. I usually try to express that punch as true to xing yi as I’m able, since it appears to be a literal xing yi technique inserted into the style. In other instances, I find subtle manifestations of the elements - particularly fire - all over the place.
it’s wrong, Ravenshaw
Actually, it’s wrong to listen to someone over the web say ‘it’s wrong’. Everyone pursues their own practice. Who cares what others think? If it works for you, it works for you. It’s akin to our bothersome SD thread - who freakin cares what others say? That’s just egotism and has nothing to do with your own private practice.
OK, I’ll get off my soap box now.
The Choy Lay Fut/BSL connection is common due to KYC’s friendship with Tan Sam. There was an uncommon amount of exchange between the two masters so many of the descendants practice both systems. My guess about Hung Ga is more due to the popularity of that style in Guangdong. Lam Tsai Wing’s books, along with several Shwa Brothers movies, showcased Hung Ga and created a considerable following. The connection between Hung (or Hong in mandarin, ala xiaohongquan) is dubious. It’s the same character in Chinese, but the forms are so different that it’s hard to imagine a common origin. I did an old article for IKF back when I was freelance about Hung Ga. Here’s an old thread about it. The article used to be online, but I can’t find it now. Anyway, the gist of it was that Hung/hong is a very confusing character in CMA with a lot of implications and usages. It’s too inconclusive to try to make a tie between xiaohongquan and hung ga. It’s a messy bit of research, and maybe someday I’ll go back and tackle if further.
[QUOTE=Ravenshaw;716234]I learned the basic 5 Elements before I learned 9 or 10. So when I learned 9, I was immediately struck by the xing yi stuck in there. I usually try to express that punch as true to xing yi as I’m able, since it appears to be a literal xing yi technique inserted into the style. In other instances, I find subtle manifestations of the elements - particularly fire - all over the place.[/QUOTE]
Same here. I learned five elements connect and around the same time the 8 Palms in Bagua then a few years latter #9. Xing yi hipped me to generating raw power from flinging your body weight forward and then arresting it suddenly and then connecting that inertia through your waist and arms. Taught me to be careful when engaging the uninitiated…
Bagua has some interesting similarities in weight/ inertia transfer and the twisting/ spinning energy creates mad results! No more getting angry and hitting things or peoples. They break, then comes trouble:( 
Peace
Gene thanks for the chime in!
Good work!
That answers my questions. That’s one of the things I like about this forum. More often then not, if you ask, you receive.
Now there is only the matter of Gene’s hair!
[QUOTE=GeneChing;716313]:Actually, it’s wrong to listen to someone over the web say ‘it’s wrong’. [/QUOTE]
I knew you’d say that.
Gene SiHing, you always impress me with your knowledge sources. I also think you laid the disciple question to rest.
Ravenshaw, this guy is just another of many. Did you ever see the guy in Oregon (David Lee [Not Chinese] or something) that claimed to learn from Chiu Kao, Leung Wah-Chew and Yim Shang-Mo directly. He was clearly a video student but made no mention of Wing Lam at all. He did, however, say he belonged to the Kao Family Kung Fu Federation, Chew Family Kung Fu Federation and the Mo Family Kung Fu Federation. (Notice how he got the chinese order of names backwards and used the personal names as family names. LOL) What was funny was that Sifu almost moved to within an hour of his school. Subitai, Chet and I kept saying we could go visit Sifu and make a visit to our “si-sook” Too bad he brought his site down before that trip and has basically disappeared.
I find where this thread has turned to be interesting. I have dabbled in all the internal styles Sifu learned from Sun Jian Yun (Tai Chi, BaGua and Xing-I) with fairly extensive study in Xing-I. I find that Xing-I and Hung Gar complement each other very well. The internal structure is very similar as well as the fighting strategy.
I don’t say this because Xing-I is the most external looking of the three. The emphasis on whole body power (not just movement) is one area. The follow step is very similar to Hung Gar’s mouse stepping/steal a step concept.
Finally, I’ve been through 3 sessions of Sifu’s intensive study courses. The goal Sifu had with them is to teach a base system’s essense and pull out those elements that were core to it as well as those that transencds style. His many years of practicing various styles has given him a unique perspective on the essence of TCMA. IT’s been a great expereince for all that particpated.
Recently he was asked if one should ignore parts of certain forms because they would never use it in a real fight. His answer was demonstrative of where he is in his martial thinking. In summary, he said that to be a fighter, you only really need ~10 techniques. Does that mean you should find your 10 and forget the rest of the forms? No! You train those other techniques (especially the real esoteric ones) to gain a better understanding and control of your body. If you can do that, doing your bread and butter techniques become easier and more powerful. I also added that forms do not teach you to fight but they give you an excellent framwork for improving your fighting skills.
I hope this hasn’t gone too far from Shaolin topics. I came to this forum to learn from all of you but get me started and I’m hard to stop…
[QUOTE=hasayfu;716484]He did, however, say he belonged to the Kao Family Kung Fu Federation, Chew Family Kung Fu Federation and the Mo Family Kung Fu Federation. [/quote]
What the ****? Other than the obvious name confusion, this guy clearly didn’t know anything about Leung Wah Chew if he claimed that he had a federation…
In summary, he said that to be a fighter, you only really need ~10 techniques. Does that mean you should find your 10 and forget the rest of the forms? No! You train those other techniques (especially the real esoteric ones) to gain a better understanding and control of your body. If you can do that, doing your bread and butter techniques become easier and more powerful. I also added that forms do not teach you to fight but they give you an excellent framwork for improving your fighting skills.
Also, the same techniques that you would choose are going to be different from the techniques I’d choose. Getting rid of forms does away with that variety. I think I remember NS writing on these boards that past BSL masters were allowed to add to the sets, but never subtract… unless he forgot, I guess. Keeping the forms gives you a source of fresh ideas to work with throughout your studies. Still, I don’t think forms will ever be my main training tool again. Not, at least, until I lose interest in sparring and application…
Hey Steve;
remember the days on the Kung Fu list when nobody wanted to share real information and the flame war was a way of life? The elitist “Of course I know the answer to your query but I could not possibly publish that on a public forum” dudes. Ha ha! I personally cursed out and challenged so many people it makes my head swim to remember. {CHRINGE!!} The only guy I ever managed to track down and attempt to cross hands with metamorphosed into the most polite human being with a bit O poop in his pants and I ended up feeling like one of those bullies I had trained so hard to defend my self against. Embarrassing! Ah well, experience leads to maturity sometimes. I am blathering all of this to express my deep appreciation for the oh so civil information rich exchanges of ideas and martial theory I have experienced here in these lovely forums.
Thanks Guys
Peace:D 
:eek:
Sorry to throw my hat in this discussion so late but maybe I can answer a few questions if not maybe some insight.
On the subject of Sifu Lam’s retirement, i’m not surprised. Actually anyone who learned in his current school are very lucky because I’ve known your sifu before he had any students. When he left his original school on Green Street, he was going to “give up teaching way back then”. So you guys can count your luckly stars because you are very lucky he decided open another school to continue to teach.
As for what style Hung style influence BSL it was Hung as translated as Red Style not the Southern Hung style. There is no southern influence in BSL unless the practitioner was taught a southern style first before learning BSL.
As for the Hsing-i moves in BSL #9 and #10, there is really no way to validate when these particular moves were added. The current lyrics that we have for BSL are dated back to the late 1930’s or early 1940’s. I suspected that when KYC was in the Kuo Shu Provencial schools during the mid - 1920’s, he was exposed to Hsing - i.
Now Wan Li Sheng was also at the Kuo Shu provencal schools at the same time. In WLS’s Lui Ho Sets, the same Hsing-i techniques are found in his Lui Ho sets. However, in WLS’s first TCMA book, the Lui Ho hand set that he writes about does not have the Hsing - i techniques.
With these two examples, one could draw conclusions but cannot be definitative, that these two masters incorporated the Hsing -i moves into their sets.
Now when I asked my sifu about my simple conclusions, he answered that these styles are very old and have a long history. Masters of different styles cross paths throughtout our long history. In order for todays TCMA styles to exist this long, the past masters have already mixed and tried every possible techniques that would work. Of course you will find similar techniques in different styles, but one as to remember some styles will branch off and use certain preferred techniques over others and hence, you have a specialized style, call it what you want, etc.
So I guess what he was trying to tell me is that most styles are complete in itself for its purpose, so it is not unusual to find what appears to be techniques from other unrelated styles within the style one is studying. Solid principles of fighting are found in all TCMA. They are the same. It is a matter of identifying it and knowing when to use it. In reality, we tend to read into what we think we see as a form of identifying a reference point. This is why when we observe different styles we tend to reconize certain techniques and say, it looks alike or is similar to… and draw our own conclusion that maybe these two styles are related somewhere in the past when they are really are not related but just express the same principles of fighting throught similar moves.
10 techniques? You just need one punch to rule China…
…and we all know that punch is xingyi bengquan. Didn’t y’all see the ONE?
OK, that was an obscure pun, but hopefully at least one of you got the chengyu reference.
On a more serious note, the notion that forms are only of value if they can be used in ‘real fighting’ is simply absurd. Sure, you want to have the fighting techniques, but that kind of narrow viewpoint will kill TCMA faster than anything. The greatest strength of TCMA is that it offers so much more than just those 10 techniques. There’s qigong elements that have no application to combat, unless you have a broad enough perspective to include illness as a potential street enemy. Is it? Yes, I think so. There’s also tons of more implicit stuff, cultural stuff, like my obscure chengyu reference above. That reference, if you understand it, really gets at the core of fighting practice. TCMA is much more than just fighting. It includes that philosophy, plus so much more. That’s what all these reality/street/MMA guys tend to miss. They look only at what works in the ring. But real life doesn’t happen in the ring. I’m over 40. I’m not getting in no ring (although I had a challenge offer from a kickboxer recently here, and she almost enticed me, but there was nacho cheese involved, and I know I would not have survived). OK, I better stop now…I’ll come back to this after I clear my head. Nacho cheese kickboxing indeed…
Wow, Northern Shaolin here too? It is a old friends (or old folks) home. LOL.
Thanks for the insights. Good stuff.
Kisu, what ever happended to the guy? From the “location” you show on the forum I guess you drove him out of town. haha
I have to say, the best thing that I ever did with my kung fu was use it to open the doors to meet people. I’ve met some really wonderful folk in the Wu Lin.
Gene, what can I say…
Just wanted to share
I heard he went and found a real teacher and is now causing loving situations for their organization. He seems to love me loads as he creates the most amazing character assassinating fictions with me as the star and sends them to anyone who will read his romantic drivel. Probably some unrequited attraction fixation and hey cowboy I no swing my gun that way. :eek: Ha ha! Write me PM and I’ll fill U in.
Miss my cousins in the North.
TEll Uncle Lam I hope to see him soon.
Peace
LOL Lokhopkuen
I must confess, this thread has become very amusing and enjoyable and we have the vagabond dude to thank. I hope he dials into this thread some day and posts.
So back to my earlier point when I got distracted by nacho kickboxers :rolleyes: the whole ‘only applicable to combat’ is such a limited perspective. Sure, you can be reductionalist, and limit yourself only to fighting techniques that work in the ring. Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, these sports are not that complicated. There’s an elegance to simplicity. But there’s also a power to complexity. Discarding forms throws the baby out with the bathwater for TCMA.
Chinese culture is one of the oldest in the world, so it’s very dense, layered with hidden meanings. Take Warrior’s pose, which we’ve discussed elsewhere. There are combat applications for it. With a good imagination (and some creative interpretation) you can draw an application out of anything. But there’s also this cultural meaning - the invocation of Jinnaluo - that imbues the move with something much deeper than just fighting. It’s like the chengyu I mentioned above. There’s a lot of implications - a lot of back story - and therein lies our morality, our ethics, and our way of life. The legend of Jinnaluo, although clearly myth, unlocks a great deal about Shaolin. You can delve into the whole Jinnaluo/Vajrapani/Bodhidharma historical evolution issue. You can also use it as inspiration - a role model for how to carry yourself as a martial artist. There are so many levels. In this way, Warrior’s pose becomes so much more than just a cross punch or a knee attack. It’s like a rebus or a koan. You can take it as far as you like.
Most people just stop at the movement itself. Those are the practitioner who are only in it for health, and that’s totally fine. We need more of them to strenghten our economy. Some actually learn an application, and that’s better, of course. Some learn many applications and the name of the move. But the people that truly master it, they learn all the history, all the cultural context, everything. That’s the spiritual level, and it’s neverending.
I’d like to quote my Sifu as an addendum to Gene’s bit:
The Third stage is what is called self awareness training. The Book of War emphasizes that in order to be invincible, one has to first know thyself and also know your enemy. Knowing your enemy depends on your experience and also your enemy. But, knowing yourself is something that is under ones absolute control and it would be foolish to not capitalize on it. The training of self awareness can be developed via meditation, self reflection, knowledge and theory studies, and internalizing ones practices. The outcome of this stage of training will determine whether the practitioner becomes an enlightened martial artist, or just another fighter.
Reading all your posts is so refreshing after all the chest beating of late.
Peace
