Shaolin Do and Forms Training

[tnwingtsun]

I think what ole serpents trying to say is that Good kung fu systems have forms that were met to build opon each other.

Each form was designed to fit in just like an American boss
will one day fit in the top chair of the company Serp. works for in the future.

In other words it seems as if you SD guys are taking ten different
jig saw puzzels,putting them in a bucket,shaking them up and handing out peices that don’t fit together.

Hell,I have a hard enough time with the forms from two different systems and they are both Southern.

[KC_Elbows]

Actually, the use of “forms” as a term is a bit muddied itself. It has also been used to refer to individual techniques. There are many examples of this I’ve seen in print, one of the ones I’ve seen most is “yang style tai chi in 108 forms”, which, in that context, is referring to form, not formal. They are not saying “we’ve got 108 different yang style sets here, come study with us”. Sort of like mind form boxing, they’re referring to the form, the appearance(CSN could probably define it better, being all artsy ****sy and all). Christ, 108 different yang style forms. Paint dries at the very concept of it.

Serpent, hypothetical here, and not meaning to gang up on you, just curious. Say at the top of your system there is a form that has all the techniques and all the principles in it. And beneath it, you have all the forms that lead to it, 100 or whatever there are. Which do you think would take longer: to teach that one form, or to teach it and the hundred forms before it?

[Vash]

First-Chevalier

The 10,000 refers to the average number of repetions necessary to develop a neural pathway’s efficiency.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by KC Elbows

Serpent, hypothetical here, and not meaning to gang up on you, just curious. Say at the top of your system there is a form that has all the techniques and all the principles in it. And beneath it, you have all the forms that lead to it, 100 or whatever there are. Which do you think would take longer: to teach that one form, or to teach it and the hundred forms before it?

Heh, I wondered if that would come up.

OK, first off, the 100 and some-odd forms in the system are from many areas: fist forms, weapon forms, dummy forms, two man and three man forms and even lion dance forms.

OK, now, there are a much smaller number of forms in the initial curriculum of the system that cover all the ideals of the style. There is no one ultimate final form.

After the initial curriculum there are specialisations with different animals, for example, and a person that digs the crane techniques is unlikely to learn more tiger based forms.

Also, some forms are like more condensed or detailed versions of previous ones, so learning the initial one then learning the more complex one will give a person a greater understanding. Learning to walk before you run kind of principle.

There are weapon forms and not everybody will learn all 18 weapons. A lot of pole techniques translate into spear, gwan do, etc., but they are not the same. The techs are recognisable, but tweaked to suit the weapon. And you would learn the inital weapons like dao, gim, pole, etc. and then later on you might pick weapons that you feel an affinity form or that your teacher thinks you should try.

With dummy forms, the techniques are all to be found elsewhere, but these forms let you apply those techniques on different types of dummies, thereby increasing your usable knowledge of said techs, etc.

While no one knows every form, they are all written down. A person with a solid understanding of the initial curriculum and then some specialisation, should be able to read up on any given form and then apply the knowledge they have to learn it.

Of course, the person that holds these manuscripts and the only one that I would really consider knowledgeable enough to really learn and teach any of the non-core ones would be my Sifu, as he has studied and taught this system his whole life.

Does that make things any clearer?

[Royal_Dragon]

Serpent,
I like what your saying. The idea is to really master the core of your system, then you can expand in whatever direction you wish solely from the manuals. It becomes as self directed system that way. You really have to rely on individual creativity and innovation when you learn the form from the manuscript. I feel at some point, you must be able to walk the path alone to reach your full potential. Only individual study can accomplish this. At some point, a teacher actually holds you back in my opinion. The way your system is structured, it eliminates that problem.

[KC_Elbows]

Interesting answer, Serp. I’ll have to respond more later, gots ta go.

[ninthdrunk]

Serpent-

It really sounds like we are actually doing the same things in our systems. Granted, in the beginning when we are building our base of techniques and getting an understanding for fighting basics, we do it differently. We teach this out through techniques that shaolinarab described on the other thread. Once we get into our brown belt levels, the skills are concentrated more. We learn three forms from the same system at each level. Then at black belt we learn forms from the same system. We are taking the skills from these systems and building them onto the base that we formed early on. Some will add skills that others dont, but the ideas are usually the same. By the time we reach fifth black, which is master level, only about fifty-five katas are required. And like you, that includes weapons also…and as you know we “mix” the internal and external. We have many more that we teach, but not everyone learns all of the extra forms. So you see, after around twenty years we still only have a little over half of what you do that is required. Sure some of us get more forms before that, but that usually means more time spent working on the things that are important to us. This seems overwhelming to someone that has never tried it before…when I first started, I had no idea how many forms I would learn…I would have never thought that I might have as many as I do right now. It is really a good way to go about doing things. Contrary to what you may believe, the forms do build on each other rather nicely. It is not like going from one extreme to the other, and then bouncing back somewhere in between…which is how you seem to be perceiving it.

Ben

ps. I think that you have to learn the essential essence of a form before you can really use it. Then you build on it. Having a master there that leads you along every step of the way only stunts your growth…so to speak. Its when you have to find things out on your own through constant diligent practice that true mastery will become a reality. Through practice of our forms, it is very easy to get a handle on how you should move, what the mindset of this system would be, the spirit of the animal, etc.