Shaolin Do and Forms Training

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Hi. I would like to take a moment and talk about forms, and how I see them. I think that there may be a little confusion on this board between different groups. Perhaps there is just some confusion as to what a form and exactly what purpose it serves. I’d like to write about how a form fits into my training.

First, let us define some terms. When I refer to the word “form” I am referring to one movement, commonly referred to as a posture. So, Shaolin Do Katas would be sets in that they contain various postures.

I am going to use a form called “Forward Marching” as an example as it is a fairly simple idea. The Forward March is a sweep, and the form involves stepping into a front stance and then kicking the leg straight out.

To begin, the student must understand the technique, so you demonstrate what the techniques is. Once the technique is understood, you want to introduce the stances that support it. In this case, it is a forward stance and possibly a one legged stance that is similar to doing one legged pistol squats. At this time, the form is also introduced.

The form is ran in a line which means that the movement is repeatedly done on both sides. The form is practiced in a variety of ways. It is done slowly for alignment, it is done as quickly as possible for speed, it is done for power, etc.

Also, you need to introduce equipment training. We use the rock pole as a good training method. A rock pole is similar to a barbell with the weight on one end. To train Forward March, get your foot under the plate and lift the pole with your foot to build your sweeping strength. You can also sweep an old car tire around the yard. For the correct upper body work, you do belt cracking which will teach you how to manipulate their upper body as you sweep out their leg.

Next, you practice two man drills to begin to build proficiency in the technique. There are a variety of drills, but they are designed to give you the ability to use the technique against a skilled, resisting opponent. Along with these drills you will do free wrestling, which is a form of sparring. Eventually you add the technique into a situation where you are punching and kicking as well as sparring.

This will train one technique and the entire process to proficiency takes a couple months. Assume that you practice 100 times a day and it is 10,000 times to proficiency. This would be 100 days, or 3 months to become proficient at 1 form.

Now, let us assume that you have 30 forms in your set and you can train 3 forms at a time. This means it would take approximately 30 months, or 2 ½ years to get through the set so that you can actually use the techniques. According to the Shaolin Do website, you are required to learn 36 katas to reach first black belt. Therefore, it would take approximately 36x30x2.5 or 2700 years to earn a black belt in the system if you are learning as a fighting art.

This does not even include the required cardio, strength, or sensitivity training.

2

Nice Math.

Seriously though, there are other practitioners of “legitimate” styles,here who have 36 “katas”. Are you saying it should have taken them 2700 years to learn their “sets” or “forms” or “katas” as you defined them?

3

Great post, the only thing I see though, is that the length of time to become proficient in a technique is not necisarily a static number between techs… it should also decrease as time studying an art is accumulated.

4

Correct. I was playing with the numbers. But the training model is pretty standard Chinese from what I’ve experienced.

Judge, I’m leary of any system that has a lot of sets. I think there are more productive ways to spend your time.

-edit-
The point I’m trying to make is, that each one of those little movements you make is an idea. A “technique” But if you don’t train to become proficient in that one little thing, you wont.

I think Xing Yi takes 3 years or so to train the 5 fists on average.

I’ve been in SC going on 4 years and I still don’t know ALL of the 24 forms (which are all 1 movement forms)

My Taiji form was taught as an exercise in body mechanics and I spent 3 years on 2 mechanics only.

5

Yeah, I’ve been doing taiji now for 3 years now on and off… Steadily for the last year, and all I’ve really worked on is waist stuff.

I usually use different terminology but this could be a good discusion, if everyone sort of gets over themselves.

6

Originally posted by Water Dragon
[B]Correct. I was playing with the numbers. But the training model is pretty standard Chinese from what I’ve experienced.

Judge, I’m leary of any system that has a lot of sets. I think there are more productive ways to spend your time.

-edit-
The point I’m trying to make is, that each one of those little movements you make is an idea. A “technique” But if you don’t train to become proficient in that one little thing, you wont.

I think Xing Yi takes 3 years or so to train the 5 fists on average.

I’ve been in SC going on 4 years and I still don’t know ALL of the 24 forms (which are all 1 movement forms)

My Taiji form was taught as an exercise in body mechanics and I spent 3 years on 2 mechanics only. [/B]

I wish I had time to really get into to some of these conversations, but work’s a b!tch right now.

I agree that it takes time to become proficient fighting from your forms. I’ll admit that I can’t apply every technique from every form (read kata, but I use the word form) even if I can explain the theory behind it. Why? Because I haven’t worked on it enough. I take what works for me and adapt that as my fighting strategy.

I understand why you are leary of styles with so many sets. I see many of the criticisms raised as valid. I still think SD has made me a good martial artist and fighter.

I’ve been studying our Hsing-I for a year now and I can agree that it will take at least 2 more years to properly apply the 5 fists. I don’t have it yet, I’m just going trhough the motions. I don’t have tai chi down the way it should yet either even though I have had our 64 posture for 10 years now. Maybe if I studied only that form I would but I don’t.

Oops. Did I just troll myself?

7

In my honest opinion, this case has been discussed and argued about more than thoroughly. I don’t know how the customs are in Shaolin-Do, but I assume that the intention is not to master all 900+ forms, but to get introduced to as many of them as possible and pick out the ones that you’re fond of and work on them with effort and dedication individually. I personally believe that it’s a good thing to have a deep pool of forms to select from, but the purpose is definitely not to strive for mastery (or pretend to have it) over an absurd amount of sets.

8

Sho-

You are absolutely correct! Now, try to go a little further than that. What if we dont even want to use a whole kata? We just like one move? I have some katas that i really only work on one move at a time in my sparring. If i take one move from each form, thats only about 80 moves. That is about the length of some forms that I have seen. Then when i feel like i am gaining proficiency in those moves, I start to look for others. If i decide that a certain move is not for me, I either keep trying to work on it, or let go for something I find more applicable. Then there are the times that I try and work on a system. I try to really embody that system, do I know all the little nuances…no of course not, but I can work on it. At the same time though, we constantly drill the other forms. After time, you may find some aspect of these forms that you may have overlooked that now can be applied to your fighting/sparring.

Ben

9

Hmmmm

Let’s do the math here:

Water Dragon + Moderator = Biased opinions shoved down your throat

In fact, you could have used any other martial art, like Green Dragon, etc to get your point across. Instead, let’s put SD in here so I can sound like a genius and once again I get to take a stab at SD. You’re pathetic…

Haven’t learned ALL 24 one-movement forms in FOUR years??? It’s simple to see that you’re being bilked for your money, pal.

10

Thank you Sho. It’s nice to see that someone is listening.

11

Obviously we’re not going to go over a whole set at once and practice its applicatons. Instead, like ninthdrunk said, we might take a few techniques from here and there and practice them separately to eventually gain a firm understanding. Concentrating on a wide range of techniques will most likely make us confused and therefore unable to utilize them habitually. Wisdom precedes knowledge.

12

Haven’t learned ALL 24 one-movement forms in FOUR years??? It’s simple to see that you’re being bilked for your money, pal.

yea, it’s plain to see you are being ripped off. In that amount of time you have learned at least 50 forms. at least.

13

Ironically, WD hasn’t paid a dime. But as a four year student he can hold his own against: A fifth dan kareteka who is also nidan in Judo, an eight-year long fist student, a five-year Shuai Chiao player, and a brawler – all selected from outside his ‘class’ to give him unpredictable, determined opponents to fight and PROVE that he can apply what he has learned.

That was a green belt test. I’m proud to have him at my back after that.

If you really know what you are trying to accomplish, and know how to train, it takes time for all but the super-gifted. A few things you can use is much better than a thousand you cannot.

There is an old CMA saying: “Knowledge without skill, you are helpless, skill without knowledge you are useless.”

14

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sho
I assume that the intention is not to master all 900+ forms, but to get introduced to as many of them as possible and pick out the ones that you’re fond of and work on them with effort and dedication individually.

*****But if Sin The is only a master of “Golden Snake” then how is qualified to teach anything but that? What’s the point of learning a form if you don’t learn it correctly to begin with?

15

It’s not form arts, it’s martial arts. If he’s learned how to fight with those things he has learned, he’s doing better than most.

I don’t think it’s beyond reasoning to say that most fighters implement MAYBE 20 moves into their fighting. Talking proficient with, here. So, that means that’s what they KNOW in the context of martial arts, those moves. They may be able to relate the use of another move, why one uses it, basically how, but they haven’t learned it to the extent of their core moves.

I believe WD is discussing those moves that he knows to the point of proficiency in fighting. Which means 24 forms would, in fact, be more than most people ever use with high proficiency in fighting, especially in addition to his hsing yi, etc. And I totally agree with him, ten sets is a number of forms beyond a single human to use in their core fighting, unless they are sets made of mostly the same forms over and over.

For the record, might it be that he requested the SD folks because there’s a group of them that are fun to discuss things with, and because they would likely have thought about this topic before and have input?

16

Well, in Dai family Xinyiquan, you need 5 years to go past the Five Element forms. And they’re much more simple than the Five Element forms you find in Xingyiquan.

And WD is right: In Xingyiquan you need 3 years of consistent practice to finish the Ming Jing (Obvius, Visible Power) Level of the Five Fists.

Yeah, you can use the fists very soon in your study of XY, but you reach the first level of true Power in 3 years of hard training. And read again…HARD training.

17

Okay, I dont want to sound like Im trying to come off like a bad @$$ or anything…

I use way more than twenty moves in my sparring. I know what everyone is thinking “fighting is not sparring”! I agree. I am using it as an example. I think that a master of a system would be able to use that system…not just twenty moves from that system. Sure, we all have a few base moves that we will try that ALWAYS work for us. But, when you are mixing it up with someone, the dangdest things will come out. I have only been in one fight since beginning my martial arts training. I can honestly say that the things that came out were not things that I routinely practice in sparring. It just sort of happened. Right after the fight, I could recognize where I had pulled the moves from. In my sparring, sometimes I will do a move that is straight of a certain kata without even thinking about it. The opportunity just presents itself. I like to think that when you are a master of a particular system, you would be able to do this all the time using the various moves from your system.

Im hoping that I have stayed on subject here…but just to take it a little ****her.

I think that ties directly in with forms practice. I definitely agree that moves should be taken from a kata and be practiced individually. I also think that it is extremely important to run through an entire kata as though you were actually fighting. This teaches you the way that a master of that style would move through a fight. The footwork, the timing, everything can be found through diligent forms practice. Then when applications become apparent, you take that move and make it work with a live opponent.

Ben

18

A serious question for SD’ers:

Do you train all the forms with the same intention/alignment/power, or there are differences depending on the styles the forms come from?

For example, Xingyiquan never moves a fist if the feet don’t move. If you do that in the form, the power is lost. But in Hung Gar (Just to mention one style), you can make a series of movements with the hands, while being standing in Ma Bu. The ways of how to issue power are different.

Do the forms of SD follow a single rule, or they vary depending on the style?

I hope I made myself clear. I’m curious.

19

Even my Northern Praying mantis class only taught about 1-2 forms a year to the students. And that’s a style that has alot of movements.

Wing Chun only has six forms. But they are chunky.

Anyway, I think that most techniques are best taught as san sik. Will explain later. However, form work can be good for training them further.

20

Well, First. I really want to say thanks to MonkeySlap for that comment. Although I think it is too kind for where I’m at. But I keep working…

Second, I’m glad that for the most part we are having a discussion rather than just talking. I’ll pay attention to crazymaddrunk when he can provise ONE example of me being disrespectful. I’ll make a public apology as well. Start digging through those posts buddy.

Here’s where I’m coming from. I love the CMA. Ever since I walked into the Indiana University Taijiquan club and my first Instructor, Charles Pearce, had me hit him as hard as I could in the gut 20 times while he corrected my punch I have loved them. I lucked into it. By dumb luck, I found the real deal and was taught how to recognize that.

I want people to know that. I want those who WANT to find the fighting skills in CMA to be able to find them. There’s a whole lot of hucksters in the CMA who claim things they can’t do. And there’s a lot of people who train under them who are perfectly happy. They’re doing forms, thet’re getting exercise,they’re having fun.

BUT THEY ARE NOT LEARNING SOMETHING THAT WILL HELP THEM DEFEND THEMSELVES.

That’s my focus. That’s what I see in the CMA. And I will do what I can to stand up on a platform and hold up the true CMA and scream, “Here it is THIS is the real deal. If you want it, come and get it.”

My first post in this topic is nothing morethan an example of what I consider to be a standard training syllabus in the CMA. From is about 1/10 of the picture. Stance work is about 1/10 of the picture. There’s so much more that a lot of people haven’t seen yet. I want that to be out there so that people can see it. Phuck secrecy and “too deadly”. If I want to kill you, I carry a gun. So does the 15 year old punk who wants your stuff.

We live in a world where the Western arts have shown the world exactly what the “goods” are and are wiling to give them to anyone who is willing to work for them. The truth is, I can give you all the secrets. You still need to bust your @ss if you want to have them.

And the truth is, the CMA are sooooo much more than a collection of forms that may or may not look pretty. There’s so much more (and less) to it than that.