[QUOTE=The Xia;716443]I can tell the difference between those who are toned vs. starving. It’s like comparing Bruce Lee to an anorexic.[/quote]
sure you can, but it illustrates my point - when it comes to definition, diet (or in the crackhead’s case, lack thereof) is the most powerful factor when it comes to definition. You can’t have a high bodyfat % and still be cut, despite how strong you are.
For what its worth, I agree with what sevenstar has been saying here, for the most part. I actually quit trying to figure out what was ideal for my goals a long time ago and started doing it all. I work on static stance training, squats, moving stance training etc. I do certainly see benifits in static stance training though, and whenever anyone says, “well, if its so great, why don’t MMA guys do it?”, I remind them of ultimate fighter 2 (or 3 or something) when they were tested by doing a wall sit. Everyone dropped out, and the last guy won with 5 minutes (he went on to do quite well if I remember correctly). I also have done wall sits in a judo class, and goju ryu class regularly. Wall sits are basically an easier version of ma bu. One thing it definetly does, is make your legs hard as rocks. I swear to god, sometimes I will touch my leg and think I’m touching wood or something, lol. Its endurance and speed/‘explosive power’ to the max. I admit I don’t know if holding ma bu for 3 hours or something really helps, but 5-10 minutes a day plus moving stances can be a great supplement to any art IMO.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;716451]sure you can, but it illustrates my point - when it comes to definition, diet (or in the crackhead’s case, lack thereof) is the most powerful factor when it comes to definition. You can’t have a high bodyfat % and still be cut, despite how strong you are.[/QUOTE]
See, when I see emaciated people I see skin and bones, not definition. As for having high body fat and not being cut, I think it gets a little more complex. Ever see someone with huge chiseled arms and a big gut? I have. Fat build up varies from person to person.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;716310]ANY prolonged exercise stops becoming a strength builder and enters the realm of endurance. [/QUOTE]
I disagree with that statement and have seen proof with my own eyes to prove otherwise. My sifu has a muscle in his leg that not even top body buliders have. It has come directly from him training horse stance for hrs on end. I myself tore up my knee many yrs ago and the surgery i had on it was only 50/50 on it not popping out of place. I use to have so many problems with the knee, it would just give out on me at anytime. After my first few months of training “PROPER” horse stance with my sifu, I’ve never had ANYMORE problems with my knee.
jeff:)
Seven, I dont disagree with what you said, you are just choosy in what you address in your replies. Structure IS strength, just a different kind, and it is used all the time in fighting depending on your style…structure is the shape of the arm of a boxers punches as they land, the legs of a hung player as they disrupt legs, etc, and that is exactly what you are training with proper stance training. There have been several successful boxing coaches through history that have also mentioned for instance that striking power isnt really affected by weight training at all. I think that is the problem is when people talk strength they often are just referring to what is studied generally, mostly sports stuff, explosive power etc. Structure is what makes it possible for a 150lb man to tear right through the strength of a 240 lb, weight lifting guy. I have seen and experienced this on myself and against others first hand.
[QUOTE=jmd161;716730]I disagree with that statement and have seen proof with my own eyes to prove otherwise. My sifu has a muscle in his leg that not even top body buliders have. It has come directly from him training horse stance for hrs on end. I myself tore up my knee many yrs ago and the surgery i had on it was only 50/50 on it not popping out of place. I use to have so many problems with the knee, it would just give out on me at anytime. After my first few months of training “PROPER” horse stance with my sifu, I’ve never had ANYMORE problems with my knee.
jeff:)[/QUOTE]
Muscle size is not a good indicator of strength. Strength can only be defined by a formula, as the capacity to perform work against some form of resistance. Even if your sifu had the world’s largest quadriceps or vastus medialis, it would not prove that endurance training (like stance holding, past a certain point) builds strength. Strength and endurance exist at opposite ends of a continuum.
[QUOTE=The Xia;716605]See, when I see emaciated people I see skin and bones, not definition. As for having high body fat and not being cut, I think it gets a little more complex. Ever see someone with huge chiseled arms and a big gut? I have. Fat build up varies from person to person.[/QUOTE]
that’s just genetics. that and lack of cardio work. Many people lift weights and do no cardio. When males eat, fat tends to go straight to the waist. For women, it’s the tricep area. Consequently, it’s not uncommon to see a guy with cut arms and a gut. It’s just a sign that he’s lifting and not doing cardio - a bodyfat issue.
[QUOTE=jmd161;716730]I disagree with that statement and have seen proof with my own eyes to prove otherwise. My sifu has a muscle in his leg that not even top body buliders have. It has come directly from him training horse stance for hrs on end. I myself tore up my knee many yrs ago and the surgery i had on it was only 50/50 on it not popping out of place. I use to have so many problems with the knee, it would just give out on me at anytime. After my first few months of training “PROPER” horse stance with my sifu, I’ve never had ANYMORE problems with my knee.
jeff:)[/QUOTE]
your knee problem was likely a tendon issue, not muscle, correct? as for your sifu, as fat cat said, size is not necessarily an indicator of strength.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;716926]Seven, I dont disagree with what you said, you are just choosy in what you address in your replies. Structure IS strength, just a different kind, and it is used all the time in fighting depending on your style…structure is the shape of the arm of a boxers punches as they land, the legs of a hung player as they disrupt legs, etc, and that is exactly what you are training with proper stance training.[/quote]
I’m not trying to be choosy at all - my bad. I don’t disagree that structure is strength, as I believe I stated. However, the cap on that is limit compared to the strength you gain from weight training. In addition, I’m really not a believer that stance training would be necessary for structural training - all you need is repetition. A boxer doesn’t hold his arm out to perfect the structure of his punch - he punches. In judo we (at least at the two schools I’ve trained it) don’t do stance training - we throw. repetition of the technique - sports specificity, which I believe you addressed earlier. As I said, I do believe moving stance training would be great for this. My main qualm is static stance training.
There have been several successful boxing coaches through history that have also mentioned for instance that striking power isnt really affected by weight training at all.
there have been plenty. there are also other who swear by weight training. preference, that’s all. You don’t have to be super strong to be a good fighter, however, that’s not what the topic is.
I think that is the problem is when people talk strength they often are just referring to what is studied generally, mostly sports stuff, explosive power etc. Structure is what makes it possible for a 150lb man to tear right through the strength of a 240 lb, weight lifting guy. I have seen and experienced this on myself and against others first hand.
As have I. But it’s not that common. that’s why there are weight classes in sports. I have taken HARD shots from guys smaller than me that barely staggered me, though they would’ve likely KOed their own size. On the same token, I have rocked guys smaller than me with strikes That by my own standard are considered light. a little guy like de la hoya can KO people in his class and maybe a class higher, but make him fight a heavyweight and he will get destroyed. strength matters more as skill levels become more equal.