nobody watched that documantary with the okinawan karate guy that broke through thick boards with his toes?
anyhow unless you do some kind of iron body it’s generally a bad idea to kick with your toes , because you might break them.
kick with the ball of your foot or your heel.
but since we’re talking sanda roundhouse , i’d say kick with shin ankle instep whatever, just careful not to jam your toes.
Originally posted by Fu-Pow
[B]Is that Dim Mak with your toe?
Front thrust should be with the ball of the foot or the heel. [/B]
there are okinawan styles - shorin is one of them, if I’m not mistaken - that advocate thrust kicks with the toe.
behold, the sokusen:
http://home.drenik.net/joemilos/bugeisha_uechi_2.htm
I took the following excerpt from another site:
"The snap front kick utilizes the sokusen (toe kick or tiger’s tooth). This is the only kicking structure from the original Chinese art taught by Uechi Kanbun Sensei. As such, it reveals much about Uechi-Ryu combat theory: Uechi-Ryu is a system that stresses fast movements (the front snap kick is comparable to the boxing jab); it is a system that is concerned with striking points of anatomical vulnerability (the tiger’s tooth penetrates cavities); it is a system that demands body conditioning of it’s practitioners (the toe is ineffective if not conditioned); the system utilizes borrowing the energy of the opponent to grab and pull him into strikes "
Originally posted by SevenStar
behold, the sokusen:
… it is a system that is concerned with striking points of anatomical vulnerability (the tiger’s tooth penetrates cavities); it is a system that demands body conditioning of it’s practitioners (the toe is ineffective if not conditioned); the system utilizes borrowing the energy of the opponent to grab and pull him into strikes "
I think it be a time better spent conditioning my fists, forearms, torso and shins. I’ll leave the esoteric “Dim Mak toe” conditioning methods to other people.
I considered your misunderstanding of qi and such concepts for a while last night. There is nothing esoteric about conditioning another body part as a weapon to begin with, but unless you understand the world vibrationally, you more than likely will not see the logic. I did study some charts last night though and tried to consider the individual points from your skeptics perspective. I think you’ll find that the majority can be explained in smaller but definate physiological means. for example, quite often we’re talking about striking specific points where particular tendon / organ feeding tissues meet and connect, or nerve cells and or corresponding do the same , producing an array of consequence…
take or leave it, I just like to ask q.'s and really know what I’m talking about either way in as much detail as I can …no offence intended to those with differing understandings… as long you’re working it well … continue on…
striking vital points with various techniques is fine if you’re into that sort of thing. but, there’s no justifiable reason to throw a roundhouse with the toe, nor is there reason to use the blade. For small point striking with a roundhouse kick, your safest bet is the heel or ball of the foot. I know you can understand that. throwing a hard roundhouse and connecting with your toe will result in a broken toe. using a roundhouse with the toe or the blade are both praying for injury.
I do , but obviously if your toe was a port of call you’d condition it… do you remember the iron toe article Gene put up a while back??
a blade can also be effective in a sweep strike to point from distance…
sometimes a heel is too big, and while it’s an advantage to have an extra measure, you’re all right…It may not be worth time spent elsewhere…
peace
when the heel is too big, use the ball of the foot. No quirky McLotus school toe roundhouses.
there are okinawan styles - shorin is one of them, if I’m not mistaken - that advocate thrust kicks with the toe.
ahh the peasants who went around barefoot their entire lives..
kick away with those toes gentlemen.. by all means..
When people say toe kicks they usually leave off that they are used sparringly and to certain areas.
Originally posted by SevenStar
I actually figured he meant the heel, not the ankle, but what you are saying makes perfect sense too. My comment wasn’t toward him though, it was toward bl:
Noted.
But then for everyone elses benifit, if you are including crescent kicks, spinning back roundhouse kicks or front leg hook kicks, you should all know that they don’t use those in Sanda.
Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]Noted.
But then for everyone elses benifit, if you are including crescent kicks, spinning back roundhouse kicks or front leg hook kicks, you should all know that they don’t use those in Sanda. [/B]
some people use them… some don’t…
On the professional Sanda cicuit in China, no one trains those kicks.
I don’t know what the American sport is like but professional Chiense Sanda schools do not have those kicks in the curriculum.
Originally posted by SevenStar
when the heel is too big, use the ball of the foot. No quirky McLotus school toe roundhouses.
Mc nothing 7*.
I had your questions in mind over the last 5 days or so, and spent quite a bit of time training and studying my mak. Do you have Earles’ charts or not?? He makes some great examples of particular points that are available best through only these means. I wrote then down, ( the points etc ) but it must be in my other ledger. He also has a couple of videos out for qigong iron shirt in defence and something else that I can’t remember the title of. Don’t worry, you nearly had me convinced otherwise myself, but I’m 99% sure that one particular round he metions’ll knock the ball out of the knee socket when applied correctly in this way. That move I’d take, and would call relevant. Wouldn’t you say?
Yes, I’ve looked at the charts. The point you are referring to is SP10.
Erle says that the point can’t be struck well with the shin or instep. He then says:
“…it must be a more accurate weapon such as a HEEL or a FIST” he never mentioned striking with a toe roundhouse, only that it should be hit with a smaller weapon. that would imply, as I stated, the heel or the ball of the foot. you do not do a roundhouse with the toe.
Originally posted by blooming lotus
I considered your misunderstanding of qi and such concepts for a while last night. There is nothing esoteric about conditioning another body part as a weapon to begin with, but unless you understand the world vibrationally, you more than likely will not see the logic.
What do you mean by understand the world vibrationally. Please define.
I did study some charts last night though and tried to consider the individual points from your skeptics perspective. I think you’ll find that the majority can be explained in smaller but definate physiological means.
Are you referring to me?
for example, quite often we’re talking about striking specific points where particular tendon / organ feeding tissues meet and connect, or nerve cells and or corresponding do the same , producing an array of consequence…
I don’t question the effectiveness of pressure point striking, rather pressure point striking with your toe. Incidentally, traditionally the Chinese have no concept of nerves so what they call Qi manipulation is in effect nerve manipulation.
take or leave it, I just like to ask q.'s and really know what I’m talking about either way in as much detail as I can …no offence intended to those with differing understandings… as long you’re working it well … continue on… [/B]
I’ll continue to not kick with my toe …thank you very much. 
This thread is amusing, in a depressing sort of way :rolleyes:
Omar, I wonder, you don’t consider Liu Hai Long, considered China’s greatest San Da champion, to be a San Da guy all of a sudden? I ask because he uses ax kicks and side hook kicks all the time…
The stuff is not broadcast as much here as I would have thought it would be and now that I’ve got the name I’ll fish around for some VCD’s. My comment is NOT based on a thorough evaluation of ALL the Sanda camps here in China. You are one of the few people here who’s probably seen and met more CHINESE NATIONAL Sanda fighters than I have. All caps because I want to emphasise the difference between American Sanda and PRC Sanda. The PRC is much more of a pro circuit from what I can tell. Fought in what looks like a boxing ring and I haven’t even seen any scissor take downs like Cung Lee does over here. They seem to favor leg picks, double legs and I even saw a suplex in a Sanda vs. Karate exhibition bout.
I trained briefly at Zhao Chang Jun’s school in Xi’an and have visited the Physical Education University where Ma Xian Da teaches. I was actually suprised to learn that he is not actually teaching Sanda, at least not currently. Watched assorted VCD’s that are available here in the bookstores and I have never seem any of those kicks.
Actually…check that…I think I actually HAVE seen him but only photos…what weight category? Last months ‘Jing Wu’ magazine has Cheng Zhi Gang on the cover as the new champion at 85kg. I’ll even do some guesswork with his name in Chiense to see if I can find him on the net after I’, finished with this post.
I also am basing these comments on the monthly Sanda articles which come out describing techniques, training and combos. The ax kick I’ve seen…RARElY. What I’ve seen a lot more, which can look like an ax kick from a still photo, is a stomp kick to the face. Spinning hook kicks are just too dangerous when you have such good takedowns included and lead leg heel hook kicks don’t have the power necessary for full contact bouts. The only reason I believe you can get away with an ax kick is because the angle can often cause a knockdown.
I’ll assume the ‘Hai Long’ = ‘sea dragon’
Do you know if the ‘liu’ is the same as in Bajiquans Liu Yun Qiao?
ax kick in action by Liu Hai Long:
http://www.sinowushu.net/sql_ws/Article_Show.asp?ArticleID=273
Or is it a stomp to the face?
edit: Still looking …unsucessfully for any evidence of those other kicks. But I DID find a photo of this really cool almost takedown:
edit: I actually have Liu Hai Long’s Championship fight on VCD already. I just didn’t recognize the name. I’m going to watch it again and look for thsoe kicks.
Sorry to add yet another unreplied to post to this thread but I just finished re-watching Li Hai Long’s championship bout with the heaviweight champ, Ren Yan Bing, who outweighed him considerably.
Not one single hook, ax or spinning kick in the entire match from either one of them.
There were only 3 kicks displayed in the whole match.
round house
stomp kick
side kick