Drilling Punch / Chuen Choi /
Rotating your fist over when striking. Do you do it? How do you do it? Is it worth doing? What is your opinion on Rotating your fist?
ginosifu
we call that the corkscrew punch…i like. i do. 
Yes, but it depends on the target. I use it more when I’m punching in a slightly downward angle, such as a partial twist towards the solar plexus, and a fuller twist towards the lower abdomen.
In my Hung-Ga, we do not begin rotation until the elbow passes the body. Otherwise the elbow comes out of alignment instead of behind the fist. Then, when it does rotate, it only rotates 3/4 to maintain elbow down position, less twisting of the ulna and radius, providing a stronger structure. It also fits in the rib cage, to strike to the xiphoid process.
The rotation is upon impact and penetration in this way, so the punch drills and tears.
The strike can also be broken up into two sections, the first being the pow choy-inverted punch, which comes at a slightly upward angle, the second is the ping choy which then drills slightly downward. This is a double impact strike, striking twice without withdrawing the fist.
This is especially useful when striking nerve areas such as the solar plexus, causing temporal summation.
Definition: Temporal Summation occurs in the transmission of nerve impulses when a volley of impulses arrives at a synapse so that the duration of the impulses is briefer than the postsynaptic potential and their deliveries of transmitter are combined to create a larger than normal response.
Yes, pretty much throughout.
Pretty much worth it to my mind, works well with Fung ahn choi.
Rotating the arm brings a little extra force into it I feel.
We rotate after impact. The elbow stays down and tucked close to the rib cage, even after impact we do not raise up the elbow. Do you think it adds extra force in the strike or is it more structural? or both? Is it worth the time it take to perfect this technique?
It took me about 5 years of working it really hard and trying it out in sparring. It was not an easy technique to master because you need to focus on keeping the elbow down at take off, this is difficult at first.
While teaching… this new modern student base, do you feel it is worth teaching it? Most of my commercial students do not put enough effort into training and it would take them 30 years to actually make this technique work!
your thoughts
ginosifu
I teach the students to rub their forearm against their ribs. (I think they should make student uniforms out of corduroy)
I am also experimenting with teaching the inverted punch first, then rotating over to ping choy, as a beginner’s drill. I described this in my earlier post.
I use more Ape like strikes, so I generally don’t do the cork screw punch. I do often turn my hand to better align with my target.
Whatever fist angle best gives me the most solid fist contact for the surface I am hitting, is how I hit.
No, not really.
I mean there is rotation happening as my arm is going through the air.
But I don’t consciously rotate the fist.
In set work, yes. But in real time, I go for shortest path to target with the least amount of impedements possible.
Yes
Like you, years of habit have “drilled” the rotating fist into my muscle memory. It’s one of those universal truths of true MA. My first exposure was actually as a little kid in Yama****a Fighting Style / Shorin Ryu Karate where it was really emphasized. In Kung Fu it wasn’t discussed in depth, it was more of just something everybody did because that’s how you were supposed to do it.
I don’t know if it ads power or anything - it feels right to do it is all I can say. I’d also say that no you shouldn’t drop it for the newbies. We mustn’t cater to every lazy tendency of modern society.
Rotation of the forearm
It is widely used with different flavors and purposes across all styles.
- In Ba Gua, it is part of penetrating palm or chuan zhang.
Most known one is the kitty hawk soaring to the sky or drilling to the heaven palm.
It may be used as a neutralizing mechanism if you are in contact with the opponent’s forearm. If your opponent is grabbing your forearm---- etc.
your palm form would be different for different strikes.
- In Xing Yi, rotating of the forearm is in all of the 5 elements fists.
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My point is that it serves many functions and purposes
not just adding final twist or power in delivering your punches.
In general, it is called spiraling or twisting power or ning jin depending on styles.
But it is also part of flipping, outward peng, inward guo — etc etc
there is also twisting in your waist, in your posture and steps in ba gua.
Heck, Ba Gua is all about twisting, flipping, guo and drilling with your whole body/posture, whole arm —
ning guo fan zuan —
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In Ba Ji, the twisting is in the waist and in the step, the fist is only extending or propping up.
Grinding stomp that is.
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Ouch pandora box is opened.
The corkscrew effect can also be seen in the basic reverse punch. It adds slightly more distance to the kinetics flowing into the strike. Its akin to the end of a whip, in the sense that the snap adds a small arc to the line that adds a slight speed increase to the ensuing energy.
yup yup yup. Kind of depends on your intent.
Never in our line of Pak Hok Pai. Tsin Choi starts and land without rotation, we rotate it at withdrawal
I probably shouldn’t respond to this thread beause it is mostly about other gung fu’s, and not my own, but I am still going to.
The reverse punch of ****o Karate is pretty much done by twisting the fore arm so that the fist hits with the back of the hand up, and also strikes with the first two large knuckles of the fist. I find that striking with the fist vertical, or with the thumb up, pinky down is more effective. I trained it when striking the pad and post to sort of curve the fist inward a bit on impact. Sort of like if you had hold of a stick or rod with the fist, and on impact sort of twisting it inward a little. This adds something to the strike I feel, but have no idea if it adds enough to worry about it. I do know that this tiny action adds firmness to the fist, or hardness if you will, just at the point of impact. I find also that I can punch harder and faster that way because I can recover and retract the punching fist a lot smoother and quicker. I also use the last 3 knuckles rather then the first 2.
The fist rotates into naturally comfortable positions. I use it as follows;
At close range it is most comfortable for the palm to be facing up, then at medium range we have the vertical fist, at long range the palm down and at super long range the upside down vertical fist. They form more comfortable shapes for the shoulders as your waist rotates. Closer and Square to the opponent the palm up uppercut like position is nice. When your body is turned sideways completely then the palm down or upside down fist become most comfortable. Hold your hand out in front and rotate to see which is most comfortable, then hold hand out to the side and rotate. The angle between the arm and the torso will determine which fist is position is most comfortable.
The fist tends to follow this rotating trajectory so it can change when needed, although this is easy to say and hard to do.
In terms of using the twisting power, when a strike does not have sufficient space to build momentum, then the addition of another force is welcome, such as twisting on impact, glancing (cutting) on impact or pushing through (digging), all have their respective uses. I find it is counter productive to add the twist into the target if the punch has already built up momentum or has the space to do so.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1158669]Is it worth doing? What is your opinion on Rotating your fist?[/QUOTE]
It’s not worthy. The vertical fist is called Yin fist. The horizontal fist is called Yang fist. You may get extra power by that extra twisting but you may take the risk for your elbow joint to be “cracked”. If you put your body behind your punch, that extra twisting is not noticeable. Even vertical fist can be cracked, but at least you can still sink your elbow and bend your arm.
Both Ways are Valid
Vertical Fist
Horizontal “Cork Screwed”
IN Hung Sing CLF we rotate the fist till the thumb and forefinger face the floor.
I think there is a difference between the 90degree rotation from vertical to horizontal, and the full on drilling like HSK and I do. Maybe 180 degrees or better.
BUT, its not an ‘all the time thing’ you use it as you see fit. Some techniques have no rotation, others do, and others still can go with or without, depnding.
John raises a good point about the exposure of the elbow. Rotating fist doesn’t necessarily mean an uplifted elbow, they can come from centerline too.
My maori mate talks all the time about the twisting in the wrist from using a club, and how when you hit with a fist, using that twisting, you can tear skin, especially under the eye.