Rethinking the Crescent Kick

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1283715]
By the way, I thought Chinese styles called these whirlwind kicks?
[/QUOTE]

The whirlwind kick/tornado kick is a type of crescent kick, just with more complex footwork. (You also have this in TKD.)

Crescent kicks are definitely in traditional Chinese forms, but the Kung Fu forms do strange things sometimes. For instance in northern forms, they do a front straight leg swing, (like a cheerleaders kick,) which would be very impractical in fighting. I have seen people interpret this as a type of sweep, a knee strike or a heel push kick. All of that seems absurd, since all those techniques are already represented, more realistically in the forms. I think it just is what it looks like. A leg stretch. Stretch kicks are important to northern systems so it’s not really surprising they would put the exercise in a form.

I agree with Bawang that outside and inside crescents in the forms are meant to be stretches. I think people may have later learned to make them work in sparring. I’m not so sure of his statement about the tornado kick being a roundhouse. He probably read something somewhere that made him arrive at that conclusion, if he did, I wish he would share…

22

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1283716]
This is why I have never liked the wrestling “single leg” and “double legs”. The Shuai Chiao “front cut” is much more logical solution.
[/QUOTE]

Do you feel the same way about shuai jiao/Chinese single leg and the ankle pick?

23

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283725]The whirlwind kick/tornado kick is a type of crescent kick, just with more complex footwork. (You also have this in TKD.)

Crescent kicks are definitely in traditional Chinese forms, but the Kung Fu forms do strange things sometimes. For instance in northern forms, they do a front straight leg swing, (like a cheerleaders kick,) which would be very impractical in fighting. I have seen people interpret this as a type of sweep, a knee strike or a heel push kick. All of that seems absurd, since all those techniques are already represented, more realistically in the forms. I think it just is what it looks like. A leg stretch. Stretch kicks are important to northern systems so it’s not really surprising they would put the exercise in a form.

I agree with Bawang that outside and inside crescents in the forms are meant to be stretches. I think people may have later learned to make them work in sparring. I’m not so sure of his statement about the tornado kick being a roundhouse. He probably read something somewhere that made him arrive at that conclusion, if he did, I wish he would share…[/QUOTE]

Thank you Kellen.

Thank you Bawang.

24

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283726]Do you feel the same way about shuai jiao/Chinese single leg and the ankle pick?[/QUOTE]
For the Chinese single leg, you only use one hand to reach to your opponent’s leg while use the other hand to reach to his shoulder (or neck). You don’t have to drop as low and since your upper arm can deal with your opponent’s arms, this will make you much safer comparing to use both hands to reach to your opponent’s leg/legs and expose your head for your opponent’s both hands. IMO, the wrestling single leg and double legs may not consider the striking environment in the first place.

How to use your arm to jam your opponent’s arms and disable his arms function is a “plus” for Chinese single leg such as:

  1. (kou) - knee seizing
  2. (Tao) - inner knee seizing
  3. (Cuo) - crisis-cross
  4. …

//youtu.be/lnzdQIqY4jU

25

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283725]

I agree with Bawang that outside and inside crescents in the forms are meant to be stretches. I think people may have later learned to make them work in sparring. I’m not so sure of his statement about the tornado kick being a roundhouse. He probably read something somewhere that made him arrive at that conclusion, if he did, I wish he would share…[/QUOTE]

common sense

but if ur degree of kung fu related brain dmg is very severe, the fist poems in multiple northern styles state that

in leg swing (lotus kick) the opponent is behind you. or you fake a right hook and pretend to overreach, with your back facing the opponent. alternative name is dragon swings tail, which makes the use very clear

in leg chopper (tornado kick) you chop your opponent like a sword chopping a horses leg. when he raises his knee to block, you will grab the knee for single leg called pulling tiger tail. if ur very strong u can unbalance him simply by landing before he does and right hook his face. this is called boy worships buddha.

both kicks are trained by iron broom skill which conditions the shin and back of the leg.

26

The corresponding shou fa of the cresent kick is vital, but in application;

INSIDE
Kick at mid level, kidneys, kick impacts during UPWARDS phase, NOT accross, kick with ball of foot, turn foot inside.

Use the ball of your foot to do an uppercut into the opponents kidneys or hips, do it close, from outside aiming upwards (hence cresent shape) hand movement is vital, do not change shape of upper body, leg straight.

Thats the inside cresent kick. If you kick ACCROSS you will destroy your own knee, hit upwards with ball of foot. Works great with shoes on. Try it on a bag now, can make heavy bag jump. do NOT hit accross will hurt knee.

Standard hand, use right hand grab his left hand on outside, pull hand down and accross him, kick with right leg into his ribs/hips/kidneys where you can, left hand slaps his face, more to distract him from foot.

Body square with respect to opponent

OUTSIDE
kick DOWN on top of something a bit like an axe but using outside blade, body is side on with respect to opponent.

27

[QUOTE=bawang;1283733]common sense

but if ur degree of kung fu related brain dmg is very severe, the fist poems in multiple northern styles state that

in leg swing (lotus kick) the opponent is behind you. or you fake a right hook and pretend to overreach, with your back facing the opponent. alternative name is dragon swings tail, which makes the use very clear

in leg chopper (tornado kick) you chop your opponent like a sword chopping a horses leg. when he raises his knee to block, you will grab the knee for single leg called pulling tiger tail. if ur very strong u can unbalance him simply by landing before he does and right hook his face. this is called boy worships buddha.

both kicks are trained by iron broom skill which conditions the shin and back of the leg.[/QUOTE]

Brain damage is minimal. Sword chopping does sound like a round kick, iron leg does train the shins. Makes sense…
Just makes you expect to see more people conditioning a round kick…

28

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1283736]The corresponding shou fa of the cresent kick is vital, but in application;

INSIDE
Kick at mid level, kidneys, kick impacts during UPWARDS phase, NOT accross, kick with ball of foot, turn foot inside.

Use the ball of your foot to do an uppercut into the opponents kidneys or hips, do it close, from outside aiming upwards (hence cresent shape) hand movement is vital, do not change shape of upper body, leg straight.

Thats the inside cresent kick. If you kick ACCROSS you will destroy your own knee, hit upwards with ball of foot. Works great with shoes on. Try it on a bag now, can make heavy bag jump. do NOT hit accross will hurt knee.

Standard hand, use right hand grab his left hand on outside, pull hand down and accross him, kick with right leg into his ribs/hips/kidneys where you can, left hand slaps his face, more to distract him from foot.

Body square with respect to opponent

OUTSIDE
kick DOWN on top of something a bit like an axe but using outside blade, body is side on with respect to opponent.[/QUOTE]

This is the most satisfying explanation of applying an inside crescent kick I’ve ever heard…except for forgoing it for a round kick…:stuck_out_tongue:
Hitting upwards is far better than hitting across, I feel like I should have known that…

29

its been 3 yrs lol how could u possibly not know this

in 3 yrs u can get a phd degree lol

30

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283739]This is the most satisfying explanation of applying an inside crescent kick I’ve ever heard…except for forgoing it for a round kick…:stuck_out_tongue:
Hitting upwards is far better than hitting across, I feel like I should have known that…[/QUOTE]

Upwards force cannot be absorbed with movement, you take the brunt of the impact, the force has nowhere to dissipate so it hurts.

It is different from roundkick in the body mechanic. For a roundkick one must tilt the body, it is longer range and generally easier to perceive. The cresent can come from a seemingly static upper body and can be done from closer range while the hands are still working and distracting. Traditional forms also contain round kicks (a lot of different types of roundhouse). Round kicks are harder (literally) to block than cresents. Cresent is faster.

In traditional styles it is common for the opponent to be completely side on to you (inherited from weapons fighting) in such a position the cresent can also be used to attack the bladder or solar plexus or on the other side, spine. People don’t use the complete side on strategy as much today.

31

[QUOTE=bawang;1283740]its been 3 yrs lol how could u possibly not know this

in 3 yrs u can get a phd degree lol[/QUOTE]

I don’t know man…maybe the brain damage is worse than I thought. I’ve been punched in the head a lot during the past 3 years…

32

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1283736]The corresponding shou fa of the cresent kick is vital, but in application;

INSIDE
Kick at mid level, kidneys, kick impacts during UPWARDS phase, NOT accross, kick with ball of foot, turn foot inside.

Use the ball of your foot to do an uppercut into the opponents kidneys or hips, do it close, from outside aiming upwards (hence cresent shape) hand movement is vital, do not change shape of upper body, leg straight.

Thats the inside cresent kick. If you kick ACCROSS you will destroy your own knee, hit upwards with ball of foot. Works great with shoes on. Try it on a bag now, can make heavy bag jump. do NOT hit accross will hurt knee.

Standard hand, use right hand grab his left hand on outside, pull hand down and accross him, kick with right leg into his ribs/hips/kidneys where you can, left hand slaps his face, more to distract him from foot.

Body square with respect to opponent

OUTSIDE
kick DOWN on top of something a bit like an axe but using outside blade, body is side on with respect to opponent.[/QUOTE]

This is how I’ve seen inside crescent from standing position in forms I have learned. Although, there’s only 1 time any do standing inside crescent at anything above knee height. In the set (straight form) it is an attack on the kidney. Otherwise, there often a jumping inside crescent that chains into either tiger steals the heart or hook punch (huen choi?). In that case, the kick strikes on the way down with the heel first, though I agree with bawang and prefer to use a round kick in application, personal preference.

Outside crescent is more common, we call it eye cutting kick. The name makes its application obvious, not meant to be a hard kick, just a whip across the brow with the point of the foot. Its used exclusively after setting up with the hands to close their gate.

33

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283725] For instance in northern forms, they do a front straight leg swing, (like a cheerleaders kick,) which would be very impractical in fighting.[/QUOTE]

Can you post an image of this? I’m not sure what you mean. My kungfu exposure is almost exclusively northern (mantis though, so very little in kicks above waist) and I’ve not seen this type of action. I have seen it in southern kung fu, specifically hung kuen’s Lau Gar form.

34

[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1283756]Can you post an image of this? I’m not sure what you mean. My kungfu exposure is almost exclusively northern (mantis though, so very little in kicks above waist) and I’ve not seen this type of action. I have seen it in southern kung fu, specifically hung kuen’s Lau Gar form.[/QUOTE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRFKuhL8xc

0:28

Do you use the crescent kicks much in your sparring?

35

Greetings,

Your sense of the opponent and target areas will determine the kick as RenDaHai so ably demonstrated. So, if all you see is a bunch of stretches, it is understandable that there would be no value to them. The aforementioned was my best David Jamieson imitation.

The inside crescent kick crosses the following target areas, foot instep, knee, groin, floating ribs, I think you get the idea. Then you have to consider the contact area of the foot: toe, ball, instep, heel, etc.

Crescent kicks have been used for leg deflections, an art unto itself that is slowly dying out. Tornado/whirlwind kicks and butterfly kicks can be used as counters to certain throws.

Kicking combinations have been in use in TCMA for a very long time.

Do check out Wang Xinde’s books. They are a very good representation of TCMA kicking methods.

mickey

36

[QUOTE=mickey;1283759]Greetings,

Your sense of the opponent and target areas will determine the kick as RenDaHai so ably demonstrated. So, if all you see is a bunch of stretches, it is understandable that there would be no value to them. The aforementioned was my best David Jamieson imitation.
[/QUOTE]

Good impression, I like it. I am going to retest the kick based on the explanation by RDH and then Soco. Striking upwards opposed to across would open up a lot more potential targets that wouldn’t have been practical with the weaker version drawing all its’ power from the leg swing.

37

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283757]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRFKuhL8xc

0:28

Do you use the crescent kicks much in your sparring?[/QUOTE]

Ah. Yeah so I won’t comment on Shaolin. I really only know one Shaolin set but its very short (basically 2 roads and a couple moves). Does not have that kick. It has one knee per road, typical front snap kick and inside crescent (so actually I know 2 sets with that kick). In this case its in a combo; trip (similar to tan tui hanging stance application, meaning really close range) -> inside crescent follow (because really close, hands in app are for grappling) -> grappling hands for arm bar with stamp/trip (common technique in mantis, this time done with previous kicking leg).

No, I don’t often use crescents. But that is also because I don’t often kick above waist. When I do, its almost always push kick or round kick. The eye cutting kick I previously mentioned isn’t bad, but the kick itself isn’t that forceful. Its a distraction. I have an old kung fu brother that has used it to win sparring tourneys, usually using it to set up a cross or hook. But I’m a southpaw, so for me to outside crescent following a closed gate means I’m either kicking with my rear leg which isn’t very good as crescent or I’m anticipating their cross. In either case, I prefer round kicks. But 90% of my kicks in sparring are either leg kicks or mantis leg cutting. Anything else means I’m probably having to chase my opponent or I’m using distance myself, so crescents really aren’t all that useful for me.

It should also be said I guess that most of my sparring is from MMA. And I favor close to clinch range. Crescent kicks (or wheel kicks, hook kicks etc.) usually mean getting dumped on my back end. So I don’t really do them. The majority of my leg techniques are for disrupting balance/toppling/tripping. Mantis was supposedly built off northern long fist, but in this day its evolved to something different. Northern kung fu stereotypes don’t really apply well. Most leg techs are low. Knees often preferred to kicks. And kicks aren’t chambered like you typically see. So I can’t really comment on other kung fu I guess.

38

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283757]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRFKuhL8xc

0:28
[/QUOTE]

This kick can also be useful but its all about strategy and context. One must remember that in the oldest Shaolin forms the strategy is to move forwards by changing sides and often maintaining a side on attitude to the opponent. This kick is usually applied no higher than groin level, but in form we will attempt to kick the forehead.

That said ZhengTiTui has several important functions;

  1. Clearing kick. Because it is straight it will naturally ‘override’ any snapping or side kick. You do the kick as a piece of footwork rather than a kick. When you want to step forwards to change side you do the kick pre-emptively. When you step forward the opponent will naturally check you with a kick, your kick will destroy theirs whether it is early or late because of its straight structure. This needs to be tested to be realised. When the opponent is kicking a lot use this leg to get close, it will destroy their kicks in mid air, but does not have to be ‘timed’ or even intentionally targeted to do so, it just does it because of its straight nature. Kick up THROUGH their kick.

  2. Penetrating kick. When someone is standing fully side on how do you kick them in the nuts? Answer? Kick BEHIND their leg. If you do this with a snap kick you will bounce off their thigh or buttocks, however with this kick being straight and the toes pulled back you will be able to kick them in the groin from the OUTSIDE of their leg with the toes. The softness of the area mean the toes do not feel the impact so much and it is very powerful, will lift them up. Leg MUST be straight and toes hooked.Target is point ‘hui-yin’.

  3. Some (not all) clans use this exclusively as a sweep, they cut the floor with it and only raise it to shin level.

39

[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1283762]Ah. Yeah so I won’t comment on Shaolin.[/QUOTE]

I’ve also seen that in Eagle Claw, (though I don’t know where the forms originate?) And of course modern wushu…

[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1283762]
When I do, its almost always push kick or round kick.
[/QUOTE]

I kick quite a bit, but those are my go tos, along with the side thrust kick. Also like to check the leg with a cross kick.
Almost everything else I use sparingly, as a surprise, or just something to throw when I feel comfortable. If I’m under a lot of pressure I’ll resort mostly to a leg kick.

[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1283762]
Northern kung fu stereotypes don’t really apply well. Most leg techs are low. Knees often preferred to kicks. And kicks aren’t chambered like you typically see. So I can’t really comment on other kung fu I guess.[/QUOTE]

A lot of diversity out there for sure…

40

Northern and southern Kung Fu, Silat and Karate people are doing crescent, lotus, crossed body kicks. The Yang TaiChi form has several. They’re kicking their open palm in the forms. It is really awkward to roundhouse your own palm. How likely is it crescent kicks are only meant as crippled roundhouses when every other form has a crescent kick?

Yang Chengfu explains them as takedowns to the flank or chest while dragging the opposite arm, possibly after an attack from behind.