Rethinking the Crescent Kick

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Crescent kicks are used as dynamic stretches in northern Kung Fu, but they also show up in the forms and are given various fighting applications.
The outside crescent is a useful technique if you know how to make it work, but aside from stretching, a lot of people seem to have pretty vague ideas about applying inside crescent kicks. The most common methods I hear are: knock something out of someone’s hand, knock down the guard, feint and hit them with something else. There doesn’t even seem to be a strong consensus on whether one should hit with the heel, ball, sole or inside edge of the foot.

I’ve noticed that when many Thai boxers shadow box, they don’t turn their hip over on the round kick, the way they would on a bag, pads or an opponent. The reason you often see this poor form, even from good fighters, in a style that puts so much emphasis on turning the hip over, is because it is very difficult to do in the air. When you throw a Thai style round kick in the air correctly, it has a tendency to spin you around, much like it would if you were to completely miss your opponent. I’ve often noticed in shadow boxing, round kicks start to look suspiciously like sloppy crescent kicks.

Round kicks are noticeably absent from most traditional Gong Fu forms. I’m not convinced that it is because these kicks were never used. I suspect it is because round kick can really ruin the “flow” of a form. Crescent kicks, on the other hand, look beautiful when thrown in the air, transitioning smoothly to the next movement. But have you ever thrown a real hard inside crescent on a heavy bag? Great way to jack up your knee…

This brings me to the fancy kicks. Tornado kicks are quite simple to do as a crescent kick, but those rare occasions when people use them to knock someone out, they are typically round kicks, hip turned over, connecting with the shin. Again, quite difficult to perform in the air, a tornado kick as a round kick, but pretty simple to throw against a heavy bag.

Even the Lotus kick, (jumping, spinning outside crescent,) seems suspicious. I’ve seen the application presented as a regular spinning heel, (wheel) kick. Makes me wonder why not just show it as a regular spinning crescent? Spinning heel requires the hip to turn over as well. A normal outside crescent can make sense from a fighting standpoint, but when you add the spin you would have to be so close to your opponent to land it that spinning seems overly impractical. Contrast with the spinning heel, which is far more powerful and thrown from ****her away. The spin makes more sense and is less risky. Of course, the lotus kick looks better and flows much better in forms. If you’re going for the look of aerial kicks, flying, spinning heel is very difficult to throw smoothly in the air. It requires excellent flexibility, far more so than the crescent kick variant. It also is tougher to flow with into your next move.

So…the point I’m eventually making here…

What if the crescent kicks in forms are actually performance kicks that evolved from more practical fighting techniques? What if the entire strategy of the inside crescent kick is the re-engineering of what was once actually some version of a round kick?

Thoughts?

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theres no such thing as a crescent kick. its purely a stretching exercise.

lotus kick is back kick. tornado kick is roundhouse.

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283674] Makes me wonder why not just show it as a regular spinning crescent? [/QUOTE]

old teacher with bad hips+ kicking was rarely used

once again this is why u cant learn kung fu from observing movement in the form, u have to know the oral transmission, otherwise the most simple thing is a mystery

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[QUOTE=bawang;1283675]
once again this is why u cant learn kung fu from observing movement in the form, u have to know the oral transmission, otherwise the most simple thing is a mystery[/QUOTE]

This is probably why so many applications seem so contrived, particularly in Shaolin.

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283676]This is probably why so many applications seem so contrived, particularly in Shaolin.[/QUOTE]

shaolin kung fu contrived ROFL

u trolling me bro

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I’ve used the outside crescent kick (but not the spinning version) in sparring many times. If I was using my right leg, it would come from a blind side over the opponent’s right shoulder. Contact point was the outer edge of foot. It was hard to spot because:

A) Few people used them.

B). Your body is straight up.

C) You’re closer than you are with most side-facing kicks like hook kicks.

D) It works very fluidly wth hand combinations.

I considered it a sparring kick, and not a “combat” kick. I also used hook kicks and spinning hook kicks (also IMO sparring as opposed to combative kicks), and preferred them. But the outside crescent also had its place. My guess as to why hook (or spinning heel) kicks were not a part of traditional forms is that those kicks were likely uncommon prior to the 1950s or 60s. Modern TKD’s founder, Choi, was amazed when he first observed a man who began developing the spinning heel kick (straight-leg version) sometime in the mid-60s. Had anybody else thought of it and practiced it? Probably. The spin heel kick is basically a standing version of the reverse spinning leg sweep common in northern styles.

In the same way, high, single-leg multiple kicking combinations as made famous by Skipper Mullins and Bill Wallace were most likely non-existent prior to the 1960s. Around that same time in South Korea, Tan Tao-Liang began doing similar kicking combinations independent of Wallace and Mullins. This was geared for certain advantages in certain types of competitive sparring environments, as opposed to “street combat”. The high round/side/hook kick combinations were also never seen in traditional forms, but became common in musical-type choreographed forms in the 1980s (or 70s).

It’s also probable that high kicks in general were not used so liberally in most MA in decades prior to the mid-20th century. It would have been seen as sacrificing one’s balance/mobility, and opening one’s groin to attack.

As for the inside crescent, I’ve interpreted and used it as a low foot sweep. The foot is ‘bladed’ so that contact is made with the sole of the foot, not unlike the foot sweep in judo and in Shotokan karate. Sometimes the palm slap in the high kick was a slap to the head, combined with a grab and pull along with the sweep. Of course, a low inside foot sweep would look pretty bad and be awkward in a form, thus the high inside crescent with palm slap.

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[QUOTE=Jimbo;1283679]I’ve used the outside crescent kick (but not the spinning version) in sparring many times.[/QUOTE]

I have too. The outside crescent is nice for a surprise attack at an awkward angle. I’ve used the sweep you mentioned often as well, but never associated it with an inside crescent kick.

[QUOTE=Jimbo;1283679]My guess as to why hook (or spinning heel) kicks were not a part of traditional forms is that those kicks were likely uncommon prior to the 1950s or 60s. Modern TKD’s founder, Choi, was amazed when he first observed a man who began developing the spinning heel kick (straight-leg version) sometime in the mid-60s. Had anybody else thought of it and practiced it? Probably. The spin heel kick is basically a standing version of the reverse spinning leg sweep common in northern styles.[/QUOTE]

I have seen spinning heel in Chinese forms, but I’m not certain if any of them were “old” forms or not. The lotus kick you see in Shaolin and modern wushu, done as an aerial kick, was almost certainly used for aesthetics. Spinning heel is a very old technique though. It was common in Muay Boran long before modern Muay Thai. I also suspect it existed in some older Gong Fu systems, but of course would never be as popular as more basic kicks.

[QUOTE=Jimbo;1283679]
In the same way, high, single-leg multiple kicking combinations as made famous by Skipper Mullins and Bill Wallace were most likely non-existent prior to the 1960s. Around that same time in South Korea, Tan Tao-Liang began doing similar kicking combinations independent of Wallace and Mullins. This was geared for certain advantages in certain types of competitive sparring environments, as opposed to “street combat”. The high round/side/hook kick combinations were also never seen in traditional forms, but became common in musical-type choreographed forms in the 1980s (or 70s). [/QUOTE]

Definitely a lot of junk, snappy, multiple kick nonsense came to be from that era. Point sparring and creative kata from Karate and TKD that performed with a different flavor than Chinese Taolu helped bring us that mess.

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283680]I have too. The outside crescent is nice for a surprise attack at an awkward angle. I’ve used the sweep you mentioned often as well, but never associated it with an inside crescent kick.

I have seen spinning heel in Chinese forms, but I’m not certain if any of them were “old” forms or not. The lotus kick you see in Shaolin and modern wushu, done as an aerial kick, was almost certainly used for aesthetics. Spinning heel is a very old technique though. It was common in Muay Boran long before modern Muay Thai. I also suspect it existed in some older Gong Fu systems, but of course would never be as popular as more basic kicks.

Definitely a lot of junk, snappy, multiple kick nonsense came to be from that era. Point sparring and creative kata from Karate and TKD that performed with a different flavor than Chinese Taolu helped bring us that mess.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I was not aware of the spin heel in Muay Boran.

Regarding the snappy multi-kicks, I got the chance to spar Bill “Superfoot” Wallace during a 5-day kickboxing seminar he taught in 1982. His kicks were very good and he could hurt you with them, especially his side and hook kicks. Not hurt like, say, a Muay Thai kick, or other full-bodied kick, but more like certain punches. But oddly enough, I felt his punches were much more dangerous than his kicks, in particular, his left hook. I was more wary of that than his left leg. I have lots of respect for Wallace. He always admitted his style was geared for sport fighting.

I’ve seen some point tag fighters attempting very poor renditions of Wallace-style kicks that were little more than foot-wagging and touching, i.e., no ‘whip’ to them.

Sorry for taking the discussion OT…

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[QUOTE=Jimbo;1283681]Thanks, I was not aware of the spin heel in Muay Boran.

Regarding the snappy multi-kicks, I got the chance to spar Bill “Superfoot” Wallace during a 5-day kickboxing seminar he taught in 1982. His kicks were very good and he could hurt you with them, especially his side and hook kicks. Not hurt like, say, a Muay Thai kick, or other full-bodied kick, but more like certain punches. But oddly enough, I felt his punches were much more dangerous than his kicks, in particular, his left hook. I was more wary of that than his left leg. I have lots of respect for Wallace. He always admitted his style was geared for sport fighting.

I’ve seen some point tag fighters attempting very poor renditions of Wallace-style kicks that were little more than foot-wagging and touching, i.e., no ‘whip’ to them.

Sorry for taking the discussion OT…[/QUOTE]

I don’t doubt Wallace could use them well…I know a guy with a TKD background who is excellent with the front kick to roundhouse and low round to high round, with the chambering, snappy kicks. He makes them work and hurt, but you do see a lot of people just showboating by throwing all sorts of kicks off one leg with no real power, I don’t much care for that.

Take it wherever you want, better than talking to myself. :stuck_out_tongue:

By the way, that’s pretty cool you got to spar Wallace, seems like you’ve met almost everyone from the era.

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283682]I don’t doubt Wallace could use them well…I know a guy with a TKD background who is excellent with the front kick to roundhouse and low round to high round, with the chambering, snappy kicks. He makes them work and hurt, but you do see a lot of people just showboating by throwing all sorts of kicks off one leg with no real power, I don’t much care for that.

Take it wherever you want, better than talking to myself. :stuck_out_tongue:

By the way, that’s pretty cool you got to spar Wallace, seems like you’ve met almost everyone from the era.[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t even close to meeting everyone from that era, but I do feel fortunate to have gotten the opportunies to meet the people I did. There were more instances of being at the same functions/events than formal meetings. One person I wish I could have met and sparred with back then is the late Joe Lewis. He would’ve whipped me, too, but it would have been a great experience.

I agree with you on the people who showboat kicks. Wallace kicked with a purpose, as opposed to just throwing for flash.

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[QUOTE=bawang;1283675]theres no such thing as a crescent kick. its purely a stretching exercise.[/QUOTE]

I take it you never studied Tae Kwon Do.

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1283687]I take it you never studied Tae Kwon Do.[/QUOTE]

He means in orthydox Gong Fu. TKD gets their crescent kicks from Japanese Karate. Crescent kicks do show up sparingly in the older Okinawan kata, presumably for the same reasons they are in Chinese forms.

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Kellen, when you mentioned some Muay Thai fighters doing their round kick more as a crescent kick, I first noticed that when I watched the late Alex Gong fighting on TV. His round kick was basically an inside crescent kick hitting with the shin. Or at least that was my observation. And this was during his fights, as opposed to shadow boxing.

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The crescent kick can not only be used in offense, it can also be used in defense as well. The outside crescent kick is a basic training in Shuai Chiao. It can be used to escape a lot of different leg attacks.

//youtu.be/qORLtBJyMyY

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1283694]The crescent kick can not only be used in offense, it can also be used in defense as well. The outside crescent kick is a basic training in Shuai Chiao. It can be used to escape a lot of different leg attacks.[/QUOTE]

Do you have a similar use for the inside crescent kick?

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283695]Do you have a similar use for the inside crescent kick?[/QUOTE]

If your opponent tries to hook your right leading leg from

  • outside in (cut), you can use outside crescent kick to escape it.
  • inside out (hook), you can use inside crescent kick to escape it.

Since the “leg escape” is “conservative” approach, the more “aggressive” approach will be:

If your opponent tries to hook your right leading leg from

  • outside in (cut), you will use bow-arrow stance to resist, get his cutting leg, and attack his back standing leg.
  • inside out (hook), you will raise your knee, lift his hooking leg, and then attack his back standing leg.
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[QUOTE=Jimbo;1283693]Kellen, when you mentioned some Muay Thai fighters doing their round kick more as a crescent kick, I first noticed that when I watched the late Alex Gong fighting on TV. His round kick was basically an inside crescent kick hitting with the shin. Or at least that was my observation. And this was during his fights, as opposed to shadow boxing.[/QUOTE]

I only noticed it in shadow boxing, not fighting, but there’s actually too many variations to list for the MT round kick. All different angles and methods, though many of them have fallen out of favor for the classic version of the round kick.

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1283689]He means in orthydox Gong Fu. TKD gets their crescent kicks from Japanese Karate. Crescent kicks do show up sparingly in the older Okinawan kata, presumably for the same reasons they are in Chinese forms.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I don’t think like that.

I have used crescent kicks successfully. For many beginners, it is the only kicks they can hope of making head height. Inner and outer. If you keep your leg sort of bent and extend it around impact you can increase the pop. Some say it is bad for the knees. Never bothered me. They also can transition into axe kicks and I have done the same with spinning variations.

By the way, I thought Chinese styles called these whirlwind kicks?

But anyplace outside of a TKD/karate/maybe kung fu setting I don’t see them being a viable kick. I prefer inner edge shovel kicks to the shin, low sides and toe kicks or whole flat of boot. Belly button and below.

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You should use your

  • leg to sweep your opponent’s leg than to hit his head.
  • fist to punch his head than to hit his foot.

You should use your leg to do your leg job and use your hand to do your hand job. It makes no sense to reverse that order. The reason is simple. You leg is “closer” to your opponent’s leg and your hand is “closer” to his head.

This is why I have never liked the wrestling “single leg” and “double legs”. The Shuai Chiao “front cut” is much more logical solution.

You use your

  • leg to control your opponent’s leg, and
  • arm to control his head.

//youtu.be/YYqF-H_1YUs

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1283715]

By the way, I thought Chinese styles called these whirlwind kicks?

[/QUOTE]

high crescent kick in either direction with side of foot to the face does not exist in traditional kung fu.

whirlwind kick is exactly like muay thai roundhouse. thats why its called whirlwind.

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always use this golden rule: if something in kung fu looks or sounds weird, its fake