Responsibility to the Truth???

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Should teachers/public figures have a responsibility to the truth? What if a school pulls all of it’s income from fostering a fantasy world inside the kwoon? An escape from reality even if it’s for a few hours a week. Chances are, most people in CMA will never be called upon to use what they have learned. If truth in advertising were used here, those fantasies would be shattered.

But what about the situation where a poorly trained student finds themselves in a situation that requires a violent end? In this case, should the instructor be liable for invoking false confidence in the student? If that is the situation, does the hobbyist even have a place in CMA?

What about third parties? Magazines, video publishers, etc. Should they have a responsibility to their client only, or to the CMA world in general?

Thoughts please. Thanks

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I’m gonna have to think about this one.

First time ever kids…

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I feel an instructor should go out of his way to be truthful to his students. There is such a thing as good advertising and a such thing a lying.

for instance when I advertise I say “authentic shaolin Kungfu” but I talk to students so they know our art was descended from shaolin arts and I fill them in on the fact that what we practice is not practiced at shaolin anymore or may have never actually been. See in advertising you need to put the least information possible to get people to read it. I could explain our whole history in an ad but nobody woul read it.

As far as being a poor student, they should be told they are poor. I tell my students they need to train harder all the time and if they don’t they will never be able to use their kungfu. Sure some students might not like I and may want a pat on the head and told they are doing great but that isn’t fulfilling my job. They agree to be my student I agree to be their teacher, we have duties to each other if I let the student be bad without telling him how to correct it how can I be a teacher? If a student asks or I think they don’t know, I tell.

Advertisement is advertisement though and one of the golden rules of advertisement is tell them what you have to to get them in the door and no more(if it’s true). Just tell them what they are buying before they give you their money.

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Which is why I tell everyone we train hard so we’ll heal faster.

Frankly, so many people are SO caught up in thier fantasy worlds that you could never get them to see it for themselves - unless they get a sudden and harsh introduction to the truth.

I think that instructors who are not honest about what they are teaching, and thier relative experience do a great disservice to the martial art community.

I find groups like “Iron” Kim and Shaolin Do very suspect.

However, I know schools that I give respect to that are not fighting schools - but THEY DON’T PRETEND TO BE. They are honest about what they are.

On the other hand, in some ways I could be seen as not entirely honest. I emphasize real fighting skill in my training, yet I am most interested in good character and setting good examples. I don’t agree that fighting is the only thing. True self defense often occurs long before you get to the fight, and it starts with being an aware, compassionate, honest person. The fighting is how we craft that mind. And frankly, for us nutcases, it is the fun part.

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Does the world need a baby sitter?

What about personal responsibility? The job of the teacher is to present the information. The job of the student is to learn it. If the student doesn’t do their job it is not the responsibility of the teacher.

The job of a magazine or video is to present information. It is the job of the recipient to evaluate and assimilate that information. False information will not hold up to evaluation. Some honest information may evaluate out as totally useless to the individual. Only information that is evaluated as beneficial to the evaluator will be retained. That’s just the way it is. Powerful kicking techniques are great unless you are bound to a wheel chair. It doesn’t make them better or worse, only useless to that person. If an instructor has a great technique that I can’t make work (yet), I wouldn’t use it in a fight.

Personnally, I don’t waste my time with is it true or false, only if it is benefitial to me. If it isn’t I disreqard it. As far as protecting others from useless information. First, I can’t say what is useful to others. Second, I ain’t your mother. And third, I don’t baby sit.

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I think one should aproach entering the martial arts responsibly. Yes, if you’re young or just getting into it, you can be fooled. But, with time, and at a certain age, you should know what you want. If you don’t find it, keep looking, don’t settle.

Unfortunately, many fool themselves. There was a senior student at an old school of mine who took pride in having the lowest cat stance. He’d use it in his form, both weapons and empty hand. Ask him to chi sau, it was always something: “Too tired”, “Got to get going,” ect. Forget fighting. I saw him chi sau once, and he got bounced around like a rag doll. Embarassing.

This person was, and mostly likely still is, fooling himself. Loosing is one thing. Being afraid to test what you should have been developing is another. And not developing them so you can live out wushu fantasies is yet another.

This person did shine during Chinese New Year’s though. He was always the Buddha, under the head was too much work, and he would use the patented low cat stance all thorughout the show – one push he’d be on hit butt.

So, teachers should be more forthright, but they are people, and this person I’m mentioning used to teach the kids, so he perpetuates this attitude. All flash, no cash (power).

It up to the student to be honest with themself.

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Good point Highlander.

“The job of a magazine or video is to present information. It is the job of the recipient to evaluate and assimilate that information. False information will not hold up to evaluation.”

I especially agree with this. It really applies to the complaints of what goes into Kungfu magazine in terms of articles.

In the case of the student teacher relationship I feel that id the student thinks his technique is effective but the teacher knows it isn’t then he should tell him.

I think what water dragon is getting at is that allot of schools let student beleive they are somthing they aren’t for the sake of $.

People flock to the “authentic shaolin Kungfu” but I am not going to decieve them by decorating the class to look like a set of a shaw brothers movie. I am not going to act like I am a monk or say I have trained at shaolin. I wouldn’t ever tell a student that any technique is 100% effective and can’t fail ever. I won’t “mystifiy” my art to appeal to hippies. What they will get from me is 100% truth as to what they are learning and how effective they are. That’s my job.

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Highlander, good answer.

What are your thoughts about the individual who is sincere in his search for authentc CMA but inexperienced. Here is a situation where it is extremely easy for the prospective student to be misled. As you know, it’s easy to say the right things. Even the most well read newbie can be easily fooled.

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caveat emptor

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Shaolindynasty … You are absolutely correct. You shouldn’t mystify your teaching or change it in any manner to satisfy your students. The minute you do, you will please one student and upset another.

We had a thread quite a while ago about why the members of this forum do Kung Fu. The answers were quite varied. It could have nothing to do with fighting or health and could be something as simple as a social gathering with people they enjoy being arround. The point is the teacher can’t second guess why each person is there or if their needs are being met. And they can’t set their corriculum for everyone. Quite often a student doesn’t really know why they are there, but they know if they aren’t getting what they are there for. If they aren’t they are always free to seek solutions else where.

Each person’s life is just exactly that, their life. The choices are theirs and the responsibility is theirs.

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Originally posted by Water Dragon
[B]Highlander, good answer.

What are your thoughts about the individual who is sincere in his search for authentc CMA but inexperienced. Here is a situation where it is extremely easy for the prospective student to be misled. As you know, it’s easy to say the right things. Even the most well read newbie can be easily fooled. [/B]

My answer would be why are they looking for CMA? What do they expect to find when they study CMA? Have you ever looked for something that ended up being different than you expected when you found it?

The point is they are looking for something, they think they will find that something in CMA. If they find that something along the way in an area other than CMA, they have still found it. If they find CMA and they haven’t found that something, they are still looking. If they find it in CMA great. The point is only the individual knows when the journey has ended.

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Yes finding out what exactly the student is after is important (if they themselves know).

Let me give an example of what I mean by honest.
Last week I put out a press release. In the press release it said I was teaching a martial arts/health maintanence system known as shaolin kungfu. One of the calls I got was from an elderly lady who was looking for something she could do to increase her health. Or qigong does that and I could have had her come in and do qigong for the whole class but I knew after talking to her what she wanted and that she wouldn’t be able to handle the hard stuff in class. So instead of taking her money I gave her the number to the local “tai chi for wellness” guy and told her that he would be able to help her better than I would. The reason I did this is cause it would have been dishonest for me to say yes you can do this when she asked cause I don’t think a 60 year old heavy set(she told me) woman should start doing tornado kicks. Sure I could have taught the qigong to her but that is a very small portion of class and if that’s all you want to learn there are better people for it.

I am proud of myself cause I could have given to the temptation other teachers do and mislead her for a couple of extra bucks(believe me they are much needed) But I feel I did the right thing.

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Originally posted by Shaolindynasty

I am proud of myself cause I could have given to the temptation other teachers do and mislead her for a couple of extra bucks(believe me they are much needed) But I feel I did the right thing.

This is pretty much what I’m asking about in a nutshell.

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As a teacher (even as a person) you have a responsibility to express your honest opinion of “what you do.”

As Highlander said, it is up to the information’s recipient to evaluate that for themselves.

But if you have been as frank as you can be, then you’ve satisfied your moral requirements. What they choose to do with that information (join, not join, etc) is not your responsibility.

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“Its not that people are ignorant, its just that they know so much that just ain’t so.” -Mark Twain.

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Originally posted by Shaolindynasty
I am proud of myself cause I could have given to the temptation other teachers do and mislead her for a couple of extra bucks(believe me they are much needed) But I feel I did the right thing.

Good for you. That’s the other side of the coin.

If you had lied to that person, it wouldn’t have been long until they moved on. Lies don’t hold up. However, lies do tear the liar down. If a person lies to you, that isn’t a reflection on you, it is a reflection on them. If you lie to someone it isn’t a reflection on them, but a reflection on you. As far as the responsibility goes, we have a responsibility to ourselves to be the kind of person we would like to hang arround. Or as I like to think about it, “I try to become the person my dog thinks I am”.

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The high road to FantasyLand

Many people just want fantasy and escape.

For those who endeavor to learn real fighting, learning to distinguish is part of the journey and progression. If you want it badly enough, train hard, use your brain and stick with MA long enough, you may eventually find the truth. If you are lucky, then maybe much sooner, or some unfortunate souls may never find it, stuck within a lifetime of endless forms, bogus belts, and pompous life-$ucking grandmasters.

I have mixed feeling about all the bogus MA schools out there.
On one hand I feel sorry for people who don’t know better yet wasting their time and money (and real bad if they get killed in the street trying to use things that won’t work) and it makes me cringe to see dudes going around with deflated egos while possessing poor, low level skills.

But on the other hand I’m glad that real martial skills are not easily obtainable to all and require a discerning mind, hard work, time and humility to obtain. Can you imagine if every Dojo-Mart and McKwoon were actually turning out legions of dangerous fighters? Scary thought.

Besides, many of the instructors and even masters don’t even realize their own ineptitude, so in a sense they are being honest because thats all they know, they may not even understand how bad they are because theyre living in the same fantasy world that they were taught and believed. You can’t generally convince them otherwise because its like talking about religion; they have dedicated years, they are brainwashed and they won’t hear the truth.

Over the past 15 years I have gone through these transitions and growing pains myself and in a way that learning curve is what keeps it all interesting and gratifying. I have also seen a good friend realize that he had spent a dozen years dedicated to a fantasy art. It was a painful transition and he was devastated. He still hasn’t really gotten over that and lost long time friends and allegiances because of that.

There is no way that there will suddenly be truth in advertizing, zero charlettans and only legitimized MA. Ideally there would be a source or media outlet that would filter this all out for us and some publications come closer to this ideal than others, but none are perfect and without experience its hard to discern. They are just trying to make a buck and its fun to see all these different styles and ideas. We just have to use our brains to determine what to believe and how we should train and study. We can’t count on a certain source to filter it all out for us, they are just a lens that picks up what is out there in the world. There are millions of different opinions out there. In the end, we have to interpret the information ourselves and are responsible for our own truth. I for one, will always be honest teaching others.

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Morally, we all have an obligation to the truth. Sadly, many people do not observe that obligation, and so we have a bucketload of laws to protect us from those that feel that ‘caveat emptor’ is the only applicable philosophy. We legislate for truth in advertising, against deceptive practices, against libel and slander, for protection from defamation, etc etc.

We also have created a climate, through our endless and often nuisance habit of litigation, in which public figures and entities (such as the media) are held directly responsible for not only the validity of their statements, but their impact as well (Oprah gets sued by the beef industry for a negative comment on her show - they claimed it led directly to a drop in revenue).

“The job of a magazine or video is to present information. It is the job of the recipient to evaluate and assimilate that information. False information will not hold up to evaluation.”

To someone who has no scholarly background of the subject (for instance, a CMA newbie), the tools for proper “evaluation and assimilation” may not be available, in which case the must rely on the veracity and moral conscience of the entity presenting the information. The more esoteric the claim, the less likely the layman can make an informed and intelligent opinion.

Case in point, the Mooney article in KFQmag, claiming that an individual can defent against a knife attack using ‘empty force’. If an individual believes this claim, and attempts to use this in an actual knife attack and is injured, can that individual sue both Mooney and KFQmag? You betcha, and if it’s a sharp lawyer, the defendant’s best bet is to settle quietly out of court. “Caveat Emptor” will not hold water here, just ask the producers of “Jacka$$” who quietly settled the case of that one idiot child who set himself on fire and claimed he did it directly after watching the show.

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Originally posted by JasBourne
To someone who has no scholarly background of the subject (for instance, a CMA newbie), the tools for proper “evaluation and assimilation” may not be available, in which case the must rely on the veracity and moral conscience of the entity presenting the information. The more esoteric the claim, the less likely the layman can make an informed and intelligent opinion.

Nobody said it would be easy and there is no substitute for experience. But lets not rob people of experience. Have you ever had a situation where it would have been easier if someone had just given you the answer but you learned so much more finding it out yourself. If we deny people that experience and create a world where everything is not questioned because we expect it to be true, have we done them a service or set them up for a larger fall. As the saying goes “Trick me once, shame on you. Trick me twice, shame on me”.

As far as the article, honestly I haven’t read it. But even if he passed all the tests and had this skill, why would a person reading the article think that they could do it without training? Even with training, why would they think they could do it if they hadn’t tested their skill? Does it say “Read this and the skill will be mystically transferred to you?” I’m really going to have to read the article, but I find it funny that so many people here are concerned that someone is going to get knifed because they read an article.

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If a person or entity has presented or represented themselves (directly or by implication) as an authority, the law then compels that person or entity to be liable for the validity of their assertions.

If you say “this is so”, then under the law you bear a certain amount of responsibility for how your assertion is acted on by third parties. This is why we have such a sh*tload of lawyers in this country, and why everywhere you look there are big fat honking disclaimers saying things like “for entertainment purposes only”, and “you hereby agree to indemnify and hold harmless” etc etc.

If I sell you “herbal viagra” and you fail to become aroused, am I liable for your lack of functionality, or are you? Should I rob you of your ‘learning experience’ by placing a disclaimer on the label stating that ‘results may vary’ and you should ‘consult your physician’? :wink: