Reign of Terror.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

You’ve no how idea how dumb I felt even typing your ‘name’…

Just a couple of questions/points:

You’re disrespecting him by even writing such sh!t on that thread. Do some ****ing research other than just hanging out at Bullshido.

You don’t believe everything you hear, but you’re quite prepared to believe stuff you haven’t heard of… :confused: :rolleyes: :stuck_out_tongue: … like this:

Ive never heard of those punches being in many if any chinese curriculums and even if they were one hand is generally on the waiste not on the side of the head like a boxer (more ala karate).
So how much experience do you have in CMA, other than the usual ‘scientific’ method of searching the net to find pictures that support your preconceptions? The Chinese arts I’ve had personal experience (even if just sparring guys from these styles - yes, sparring) of are wing chun (long time), pak mei, yang tai chi, chen tai chi, northern longfist, some kind of mantis, and hsing yi. ALL of those styles use a hook and an uppercut, and NONE of them use a hand by the hip. I’ve also sparred shukokai, shotokan, kyokushinkai, seidokan and zen shin karate (an offshoot of shotokan), and NONE of them have used the hand by the hip either (a la karate?!). Do some ****ing research.

And as for the hands by the head thing, oh, do some ****ing research! I do boxing, MMA and kung fu, and without those big-ass gloves on to close protect your head and face those boxing hooks are much harder to set up… try it again with MMA gloves. Think about it… The boxing guard with the gloves by the face is great because big gloves won’t fit through… but why do you think the Thai stance has the elbows perpendicular and the hands up?

I was talking about generally western martial arts style footwork not just boxing but included in this would be kickboxing, savate, and fencing. I doubt any sanda schools use bagua or monkey style footwork cause its not as effective.
Based on what experience? Do some ****ing research. And where the **** do you think ‘kickboxing’ comes from? You think that’s a ‘western’ MA?

If that is the case why isnt he the ufc champ? and why havent you tried learning from him?
I like driving, but I don’t wanna be an F1 racer. Same with, well, a hell of a lot more people than those who DO wanna become F1 racers.

but didnt you backout of the challenge ray (evolutio fist) gave or was it some other llama guy?
Ask Ray. No Lama people backed out. Even if they refused, doesn’t mean they’re backing out… it’s a difference of maturity. BTW, the spelling is Lama, do you honestly think it is funny, or you are ‘owning’ someone by spelling it ‘llama’ or are you just a moron?

I mean seriously, how old are you? You say you’re trying not to disrespect people, then you ask questions which show a basic lack of understanding of what you think you are talking about, and then come it with passive-aggressive BS.

2

I havent officially trained in kung fu but read alot on the net, bookstore, watch documentaries/movies, watch clips on the net I can find, also I read kung fu/tai chi/and vairous other magazine each month in the bookstore, which pretty much gives me an idea what it is. I hell of know more than the millions of mma and bjj nutriders that post on various kung fu forums badmouthing it so at least give me some props for that. The stuff Ive seen rpetty much shows in both forms, demonstrations, and technique training one hand on the hips while the other punches. heck watch the chen tai chi form done by chen xiaowang to see what I mean or again look at the pciture I posted in the other thread.

I’ve also sparred shukokai, shotokan, kyokushinkai, seidokan and zen shin karate (an offshoot of shotokan), and NONE of them have used the hand by the hip either (a la karate?!). Do some ****ing research.

They dont use it in sparring but they do in training techniques. And it gives a bad habbit where at least biggeners will drop their hands after they punch or after they get tired.

And as for the hands by the head thing, oh, do some ****ing research! I do boxing, MMA and kung fu, and without those big-ass gloves on to close protect your head and face those boxing hooks are much harder to set up… try it again with MMA gloves. Think about it… The boxing guard with the gloves by the face is great because big gloves won’t fit through… but why do you think the Thai stance has the elbows perpendicular and the hands up?

Actually you can protect your head the same way as with gloves but you use the backside of your hand (dont curl it into a fist like with a glove) and it will hurt but alot less and wont do much damage from a bare knuckle punch, or you can put your hand on the back of your head or the front of your head and block with the forearm/elbow. And the thais sue boxing guard because they learned in the apst that boxers have betetr hand offense and defense and adopted it for muay thai.

Based on what experience? Do some ****ing research. And where the **** do you think ‘kickboxing’ comes from? You think that’s a ‘western’ MA?

well mt is obviously thai, but kickboxing basically had its start in the U.S and has alot of influence fomr boxing (definetly the west) so it would pretty much make it western.

No Lama people backed out. Even if they refused, doesn’t mean they’re backing out… it’s a difference of maturity.

So by your logic Chan tai san wasnt very mature than?

3

To add my two-cents worth: It is my experience that in CMA it is more common to have the non-striking hand held open in front of the body at around the shoulder of the striking hand. Part of the rationale being that it has less distance to travel if you need to use it to block a strike for instance. Although the hand is occasionally held at the waist, I have only encountered this in forms and find that far more often the hand is held as previously described.

4

ROT makes me ROTFLMAO

Please…

Another no name fool.

Post less and train more, ROT then you might have more to share with us who have.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

5

Challenge?

Hey, I’m lost here; What was the challenge that some Lama People backed out of? I have never heard of this? It is true? Who is the challenger…and the challeng-e? Someone please fill me in on the story?

6

there’s a reason for it… look into the applications of forms.

Actually you can protect your head the same way as with gloves but you use the backside of your hand (dont curl it into a fist like with a glove) and it will hurt but alot less and wont do much damage from a bare knuckle punch, or you can put your hand on the back of your head or the front of your head and block with the forearm/elbow. And the thais sue boxing guard because they learned in the apst that boxers have betetr hand offense and defense and adopted it for muay thai.

No. Watch a thai person fight - you will typically see very few punches, and the ones you do see are typically straight punches. Watch the thai footwork - it’s different from boxing footwork. You won’t a thai bob and weave. Most of the western boxing seen in thai boxing is an adaptation made by the western world - thais don’t use them. The boxing guard is split - some use it, some don’t.

well mt is obviously thai, but kickboxing basically had its start in the U.S and has alot of influence fomr boxing (definetly the west) so it would pretty much make it western.

actually, there are people who will tell you that MT is kmer, not thai… kickboxing started in the us, but what is the foundation for it? karate. the point karate guys wanted harder contact than was allowed in the point sparring venue.

7

He is referring to the time when you got a call from Ray about coming down to your school and hoping to see lama pai in action so to speak.

because of the insurance situation, you decline to play.

so, based on R-O-T’s logic, Ray issued a challenge and it was unanswered, hence backed out.

it is a whole different game when people have to pay bills and keep a roof. one shaw movie too many for him.

8

Well, you can give a kindergardener a library pass to the MIT library, but that doenst mean he’ll understand the resources within. Not really a knock at you, but you can’t possibly expect to know what some of these guys are really talking about with your level of exposure and experience with CMA. Youre wearing diapers when it comes to the world of CMA, and very much out of your league in debating with guys like lkfmdc. Youre in no position, nor do you have the tools, to accuately evaluate some of these things. You cite things that the guys on mma.tv or bullshido say about this or that, when guys like Sifu Ross are widely regarded as the most experienced authorities on those subjects on those very same forums, and held in high regard by forum members there that actually have a clue. The problem is that many of the guys on those sites don’t have a clue. You come on here trying to superimpose some kind of bogus quasi-scientific bullshido methodology onto others (most of whom have plenty of well documented information here and other places that is no secret and easy to find), and who youre clearly out of your league with, yet don’t provide your own experience, name, and fight/track record, a total double standard and half-azzed approach. Youre probably considered a loser on the forums that you imply that you represent.

They are NOT the same…
SanDa had a whole different evolution path than westernized kickboxing.
–> Full contact karate tournament rules spawned kickboxing here in the 70’s
–> Chinese military distilled sanda drills and competition from different traditional kung fu styles over the course of the last century. Designed to quickly produce dangerous and effective soldiers. It is a methodology for training certain CMA skills and techniques. Yes some suface things might look similar to a nooB (and there are only so many ways the human body moves) but there are even more differences in principle and details. Have you not heard that ‘the devil is in the details’? And the big-picture appoach is very different too. If you don’t think that SanDa techniques exist in TCMA then thats your misconception and youre wrong. You get caught up looking at some of the superficial icing decorations and fail to see the cake.

Just because YOU can’t see it or understand it, doesnt mean its not not there. You just hold some common misconceptions. You dont’ have enough experience with CMA to see the principles.

ROT, people wouldn’t have a problem answering your questions or helping you learn something if you are genuinely interested, IF you didnt come off as a rude, clueless jackazz. Maybe reevaluate your approach and at least provide all of your own info if you want to play that game. Or better yet, just save that cr@p for over at bullshido, that approach does have some merit, but its not the nature of this site, and not everyone has something to prove. Just try to enjoy the CTS stories as most of us do, without being an ass about it :rolleyes:

9

I guess your right but again it depends on the gym/camp. Each gym/camp is different. The camp where m teacher was taught had a big boxing curriculum anyone could learn alongside or even by itself boxing and it was a big part of the strategy at that camp. It was sityadong or something along those lines with sayat. My current boxing coach said the kickboxers hold their punches horizontal sometimes instead of vertical and punch straight instead of turning their punches when they throw them which he says isnt as effective and theyre now learning to do it the boxing way.

10

they punch that way for a reason - they also tend to angle their punches downward - using gravity to assist the power of them. before the current muay, muay thai - was a muay called muay kaad cheurk - this is where the use of hemp to wrap the fists was introduced. I’m sure that stuff caused cuts pretty easily, and I KNOW elbows are good for opening cuts. With a boxing punch the turning of the wrist adds snap and a little extra power, but the big thing is that the leather twisting against a person’s face can open up cuts due to the friction produced.

Like you said, it depends on the gym. If I am at a gym that specializes in knees and elbows, I likely don’t particularly care how much power the punch has - I only want to use it in a way that allows me to get into knee and elbow range.

11

challenge?

Hey, hey hey. Someone here suggested that Ray Pina challenged me to a fight? I don’t think so. Ray Pina called my school for information regarding classes. He informed me of his experience and if he could spar with some students. I did not deciline a challenge, there wasnt’ one to decline! If that was a challenge, I’m a bit long in the tooth, because this must be a new method all those young kids are using today!

Ray, sincere or not, did not challenge me or my students. He said that he wanted to see if his tai-chi was any good. As I mentioned in a previous post, I said to test it on Tai-Chi people.

When I said that I do not have my students spar with people off the street, he question me as to why. I informed him that it is not my policy to do so and I’m not covered by my insurance company if something were to happen.

Think about it; Why would I, or anybody for that matter, put my livelyhood at risk because a stanger, whom I know nothing about, wished to test his martial muscle against a student, or even me?

Senario 1
I indulge Ray. We fight. I hurt Ray. Ray limps home. Or worse. Then..I get a call from NYPD or papers from Ray’s lawyer wanting to sue me for ‘beating up a prospective student.’ No good for me. Not really too good for Ray either.

Senario 2
I indulge Ray. We fight. I get injured. I can’t teach or have difficulty teaching. Ray hurt too. No good for me. Not really too good for Ray either.

Senario 3
I indulge Ray. He hurts my student. My students limps home. I get papers from my students lawyers. No good for me.

My two Kung-fu schools will generate over $900,000 this year (Kung-fu has been good to me) Do you think that any of you, given my position, would jeapordize that for a guy I don’t even know?

I’m sure Ray is a nice guy. He was nice on the phone and I’m sure he’s a good martial artist. He was invited and agreed to take a class last Saturday and he later declined to show up. I wish him the best in his pursuit of the truth.

Does that clarify this for everyone? I’m sure that Ray Pina will collaborate.

12

ok I see what your saying, I guess the ray guy is a bit hot headed.

Like you said, it depends on the gym. If I am at a gym that specializes in knees and elbows, I likely don’t particularly care how much power the punch has - I only want to use it in a way that allows me to get into knee and elbow range.

A. most gyms outside of thailand dont work much with elbows cause they are illegal in most venues in the West.
B. Elbows are hard to get to work cause you have to be pretty close to your opponent almost if not if in clinching range, hence why they arent used too often in mma or even mt in thailand. And
c. They are hard to get good at or train with aliveness.

13

by the way someone on bullshido said the gracie family still has an open door policy in regard to challenges. So if thats true and they havent been prodecuted or ran into any toruble with the law Im shure nobody else would. hell they even videotaped the fights and the cops still didnt care and nobody even sued them for using their name or their image to advertise themselves. So that pretty much tells me that challenges are just as accessible today as they ever were. Heck you can also get weavers to sign so they cant sue you or do anything to you if you injure or kill them during the fight as well.

14

Are you serious? He practically laid out a challenge for this entire forum for a prize fighting match with $500 on the line saying he wont fight in a professional match cause his secret techniques will be revealed to the public. On top of it he challenged me on bullshido just because I made a comment about him not having a video clip even though I live on the other side of the country from him. He also said another forum member who does kung fu and constantly defends it on bullshido (who I think is banned there now and who Matt Thornton made fun of cause he was so threatened by him) named Djimbe saying he talks alot of **** when he was defending kung fu vs like 50 posters in this oen thread.

15

If you believe what you say, why do you have to defend yourself? Your frequent response conveys your weak convictions ROT. You read your magazines, online articles, and image search horse stance. You are an expert and no one can take that away from you. :slight_smile:

Just like the other 3 billion or so males on the face of the planet.

16

I never claimed I was an expert but have a fascination with all kinds of ma that I look into, read about, etc. I know a lot about famous kung fu masters and enjoying reading those stories. Heck I know more about cma than the majority of posters that bash it on forums such as mma.tv or bullshido.com

17

ROT is Ralek’s little brother.

You “read” the Gracies have never been “prosecuted” for their open-door policy, so you’re sure that no one else would be either. In addition to reading about all the kung fu masters have you been reading the law too?

18

ROT,

I can’t blame you for thinking you know some things because you read them from books or magazines, they are after all, some of the only easily found and accessible sources. The only problem is that most magazine articles and books only give an introductory description or overview on the styles and individuals they cover, otherwise they risk losing the reader from the beginning.

Having said that, probably everything you have read or learned about every Chinese martial art and martial artist is only superficial. Don’t take this the wrong way but the names of Sifu Chan Tai San, White Haired Devil, or any other famous name you may have come accross, Chan heung, Hung Hei Gwan, Li Zi Ming, Wang Zi Ping, Lee Koon Hung, Lum Jo, Lum Sang, Lau Fat Mang, Chan Hok Fu, Wong Fei Hung, Tarm Sarm, etc. on and on and on, should never come out of your mouth or keyboard anymore as if you know anything thing about them, or have the knowledge to speak for them or their respective lineages, teachings, disciplines, or personal history, especially of fight experience and knowledge.

19

A. YOU were the one who brought up schools in thailand, so that’s what I was referring to. As for the US, you can use elbows in modified thai matches in a few states. Two I can think of off the top of my head are vegas and colorado.

B. Elbows are used quite frequently in thailand. I’ve got several vids of elbows in action. Knees are more common, but elbows are used.

C. That’s what thai pads are for.

20

that’s great and all, now here comes the question…

How much actual training do you have?