Realistic Training

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Several times over the past couple of weeks I’ve check out a yahoo martial arts chatroom. I have been very suprised at what I have been reading there. It is full of people who are traditional martial artists. I’m not saying that is bad in and of itself. When they ask me what I train, I just say MMA/ NHB. Usually they ask what that is, and I have to explain it to them. I explain that I crosstrain in several martial styles, but instead of being loyal to a certain style, person, or system, I really only care about what really works in all ranges of combat against a fully resisting opponent. I tell them that I test this by fighting in my training, and competing and NHB events. Most of them havent heard of NHB, so I say it’s like the Ultimate Fighting Championship they have seen on TV.

I would imagine that this is a simple idea that wouldnt involve much debate. The idea that you have to fight in your training to actually be able to fight well. Well, I run into great disagreement. There must have been at least a dozen “Martial Artists” tell me that NHB is not realistic, so they dont do it. They say their techniques are too deadly for a competition or to even train them against resistance. I’ve heard things such as “against a groundfighter I would just bite him and rip his nuts off”. I told them that by merely ellimating a few things, like biting, eyegouging, and attacking the groin, we are able to still realistically test what really works in all ranges of combat. I have been preached to about the benifits of forms, katas, and not doing any sparring until you are “4th dan”.

I have learned something from them though. Not everyone is into the martial arts to learn how to realistically fight in all ranges of combat. I have had to accept that. Judging by the people in that chat room that I’ve been in, most of them have never even thought about fighting in all ranges of combat. They are into chi, and claim they have very deadly techniques that they cant practice. I’ve asked them what they would do if someone was sitting on their chest, and I’ve heard things such as “I’d just knock them out before they got me there”. Well, what could I say to such wisdom?

I tried to explain the idea of training with submissions and tapping out; but I ran into more interesting responces. They said they dont tap out in training. Their techniques dont allow for it… they just break stuff immediatly. I asked how they were able to train that way, and they said through katas. Just so you know, must of them were into TKD, kung fu, and lots of different Chinese sounding arts.
I’m really not trying to put down any traditional martial arts. I truly believe that every martial art has some positive things to offer. However I also believe that no individual style or system is completely well rounded in all ranges of combat; thus the need to crosstrain. It seems to me that a person is going to be relatively tough and competent in all ranges of combat if they simply train realistically, even if they havent had any instruction in it. Take 2 brothers that grew up fist fighting each other in their backyard on a regular basis. They are gonna be some tough dudes, I dont care if they never officially studied martial arts in some school. One interpretation of “Martial” is “Combat”, and they have been combating each other regurly. The same can be applied to someone that has studied a traditional martial style. If they have gone beyond those techniques and actually done a lot of actual fighting, then they are still going to be a pretty competent fighter.

Sorry for the long-windedness, but here’s my point. It seems like the great divide between traditional martial artists that study one style or system of combat, and Mixed Martial Artists, is that typically the traditionalists do not engage in realistic training. They dont actually fight each other in their training. They dont kickbox, strike from the clinch, throw/ takedown, and go to submissions against a training partner that is trying to do the exact same thing. They dont ever get bruised or bloody in their training. They also seem to take great offence to this idea being somehow better at preparing them for combat.

2

Do you think that you may have slightly overgeneralized your point?

It would be like me saying that all MMA fighters have ADD because they can’t focus or commit to one art. Or all MMA fighters are gay because they like to roll around on the ground with one another.

You need to consider the mind set and motivation of different people.
I would guess that a MMA fighter is someone who considers themselves to be a good fighter and wants to test their skills against other fighters. To do this they fight a lot and train in several different disciplines to improve their skill sets. Jack of all trades sort of thing.

A traditional martial artist (whatever that is), may have several reasons for taking up a martial art and only one of those things is to become a better fighter. For example, some people might just want to get in shape or become more flexible. Some people might have an interest in far east philosophy, part of which is making your body strong and learning to fight. Some people may just like Kung Fu movies and want to learn how to do that stuff. Some people maybe like learning all the forms and then seeing how they can extract that information and applying it in a combat situation.

I find it bizare that you would come to a Kung Fu disscussion board, overgeneralize on what you think “tradional martial arts” are and then talk about how “realistic” you think your style of fighting is. The truth is, you have a completely different mind set then most of the people here. So why don’t you go to some MMA discussion board and impress everyone with your wisdom there.

3

Also, I think if you’re going to bash people on another chat room or forum you should at least post a link :wink: Just because something is “Chinese sounding” doesn’t make it a traditional martial art… and generalizing is kind of dumb. Should all the people who practice Liu Yun Qiao’s baji style be attacked because someone from Freds school of magic duck kungfu is talking out of his @ss? China has produced hundreds of different systems of training, some as different as jujitsu and tae kwon do. Some arts were derived from military, some from farmers, some from cult leaders, etc. Waaaaaay too much diversity to be lumping everyone in together.

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Jist my opinion

5

Absolutely agree, Xindu. If you are learning an art to fight: then at some point you must fight.

6

this guy copy and pasted this post from a mma.tv thread with exactly the same writing, or the guy on mma.tc did, or its the same guy but what is he doing on a wing chun forum?

7

You can’t be good at fighting if you don’t fight. And you aren’t a good fighter when you fight full the first time. Maybe after much pain you are going to be good at fighting. But you have to do it, if you don’t you aren’t in my opinion a Martial Artist, you are a dancer.

8

training in one style doesnt define a traditional martial artist. A guy who trains a bunch of kung fu styles or a mix of a bunch of styles can still be considered a tma. tma are basically all ortiental styles beside muay thai, someone who only trains in oriental styles be it mroe than one is still a tma. Only sport styles are condiered mma, and plenty of people train in only one sport art rather than all, only a small number of people that train in these styles train for mma.

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actually you dont have to fight to be good at fighting. there are plenty of natural born kilelrs on this planet who never fight but once they do (if they are ****ed off enough) they always win.

10

I had to sit back and think on this and you are right there are people out there that have probaly only fought once and awhile and are killers, hit men, nut jobs,
serial killers ect… If someone truly wants to get to you they can if they know what they are doing you are history, nobody is unstoppable, I `think alot of martial artist watch too many movies. My opinion when it comes to training if you don,t fight against someone who does fight during training I put my money on the true fighter.

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but some people are truly determined and agressive and have increidble strengh + size so even if you train that way yous till could lose to someone like that. Hell their pure agression and violence could make you freeze.

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Ha! those types! Give them a piece of candy, and a pinch on the cheek! Problem solved.

13

Ofcourse there are persons who have it just in them to fight, natural born killers like you like to say it…

BUT this has to be an extra motivation to train. It’s not because there are better, stronger persons in the world that “you” don’t have to train and be so good as you can.

This is what they call “motivation”

14

how true during the toughman contest the people who won most of the fights were street brawlers they beat most of the trained martial artist with ease. cause most MA’s never took a real hard hit.

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tank abbot is such an example in the early part of his career. shure he had boxing experience from back in the day but most likely he forgot it and never was much at it so he basically fought like a regular untrained person, and he could hit like a brick and knock most people out, whether trained or untrained. Look at kimbo for instance.

16

Xindu,

What are you doing writing the same question in all the different sections of this BB? You asked this same question under a different title in the “Related Arts” section!!

Below was my response on that thread! Why don’t respond to it and I will be happy to discuss it further with you. The point is everything has its limits! And no matter how well prepared you think you are, there is always someone, somewhere, sometime who can do you in!!

I agree there is a certain amount of fantasy involved with many who practice martial arts. One of the fantasies is the efficacy of mixed martial arts. It is predicated upon an assumption of how we “think” a “real life” encounter will occur. The marketing of mixed martial arts is predicated upon a narrow set of circumstances and ignores many possible scenarios just like any other art preceding the 90’s. It may account for a wider variety of circumstances, but it is still limited. It is one thing to have to fight one person, and another to have to fight many, and another to have to fight many with baseball bats and yet another to have to fight someone who has just come up behind you and brained you with a claw hammer! Or a home invasion with a shot gun.

The only true test of any MA is when our life is on the line. Anything else is a limited circumstance. Even NHB competitions have rules. No biting, eye gouging, finger breaking, groin kicking!! One of the first things I would do in a real life or death encounter is drive my # 2 pencil or Papermate pen into my assailants eye or throat. Now I have just neutralized his 10 or 15 years of mixed marital arts training!!! If he wants to take me down? I will be happy to drive my # 2 pencil or my pocket knife blade into his cervical spine or his kidney, or maybe I will just slit his throat. There goes his 15-20 years of mixed marital arts training!! His advanced training has just provided me with the opportunity I needed. He fell into my trap! Which was, “Please take me down!!! I don’t know what I am doing!!!” I merely prepared for the weakness in his attack and it didn’t take me 10-20 years of learning fancy moves to defeat him. I learned it just this second when I thought it up!!

It isn’t always who has the most training in real life. It is who is willing to be the most brutal first!!!

Years ago I went to high school with a guy who did just that. He crashed a high school party in a neighboring town. He was called out into the front yard by some big football player. While the footballer was busy posturing, pushing and mouthing off, the guy took out a straight razor and slit the footballer’s throat. Now he is dead!!! He is dead because he was messing with a guy who was willing to be more brutal than he was and didn’t care what the consequences were!!!

I have a friend who is a master of combat shooting! He is ranked a master in internationally sanctioned competition!! He can draw and shoot me dead before I can get close enough to him to do anything!! There is pepper spray and tasers, and baseball bat-fu and the well proven O.J. Simpson-Fu (Hide in the bushes with a big knife!!!)!! Everything has a weakness! If a person is training to be invincible he is chasing moonbeams! Choose your method of training and have fun and be as well rounded as you want to be, but don’t confuse yourself into thinking that you can take anyone. A smart person, who wants to take you out, only needs to discover what you know and devise a way around it. That is all it takes!! It is called strategy and tactics!!! The best method is to just sneak up behind you and club you to death!! Surprise from behind is more effective than the most highly trained person. If you are not expecting it you are as good as dead. So train in your NHB, but know you are training for a duel, not real combat!!

17

Crazy !

Scott you freaky dude, you just reached into my mind and said what i was thinking.
Nice post !
If Anyone’s ever spoken to a cop they would agree with what you just said.

Drugs is the big problem in my country, My sparring partner told me about a call out one night with a dude on pure methamphetamine, when it got to the crunch he kicked the guy in the balls with steel cap boots and what do you know it just ****ed him off, sprayed him with pepper spray and smashed him in the legs with his batton, what do you know, just ****ed him off…hmmm where do we go from here ?
Ahh central…im gunna need backup ! :eek:
The fact is there is every possible senario and you never know what can happen or what everyday object you may come across like scott and his pencil !

Further to the TMA thing that was mentioned… does anyone remember “Big Daddy’s” first UFC fight.
On the fight card his style was " Kuk Soon Woo"…who ever heard of that ?
but 10 seconds (at the most into the fight) the grappler took him to the ground and bam between 8 and 9 elbows to the head…the poor guy was knocked out on the first one (probably a good thing that he didnt feel each proceding elbow until he awoke)

At the end of the day Xindu the people on the board you mention and this one even, represent a small amount of people world wide that practise a fighting art.
So dont let the view of the few, represent in your eyes the view of the many.

18

One of the great things about MMA training is its ease of transfer to fighting in other scenarios such as the street where weapons or multiple opponents may be involved. A MMA fighter with some basic weapons training will understand that a simple clinch with double underhooks to a body slam or suplex to mount will make it virtually impossible for you to get that deadly #2 pencil from your pocket protector

19

Hi Knifefighter,

Your solution to the dilemma presumes certain things:

  1. I am not prepared in anyway!
  2. My pencil is in a pocket protector and not in my hand.
  3. I am going to be standing in a manner that will allow for a simple or easy takedown.
  4. I don’t know how to respond to a simple takedown.
  5. I will not react when I perceive danger.
  6. Takedowns, especially simple, ones are not simple to counter!!! THEY ARE!!!

We can change any scenario around in our minds to accommodate our fantasies. So I am happy to play. While you are taking me down with your simple clinch into a double pirouette flip, one of my friends, who is even more brutal than I am, comes up behind you and hamstrings you with a machete!! He is hiding in the bushes ready with it in his hand! And while your army of ninja MMA friends begin their attack my NAVY SEAL team with .50 caliber machine guns mows them down!!!

You have completely missed the points of my post! They are:

  1. Unexpected things can and do happen!
  2. Simple solutions are often better and quicker than complicated moves!
  3. It is the individual who is willing to be the most brutal first that has the advantage!
  4. Good strategy and tactics surpass fancy moves!!!

Guess how much training in the MA the guy with the straight razor had??? NONE!!! Go head and clinch someone with a straight razor in his hand HIDDEN BEHIND HIS BACK!!! He will be turning you into jerky while you are playing pro wrestler with him!!

20

Simple takedowns are the hardest to counter when they have good set-ups.

There’s not much simpler than a clinch with double underhooks to a takedown to a mount.

The person who has the advantage is the one who gets ahead in the Observe, Orient, Decide, Act loop. You can be as brutal as you want, but if I’m already ahead of you in this loop you can’t bring your brutality into play.

Clinching someone with a bladed weapon already drawn is not a good idea.. That’s when your own blade should come into play.

You are assuming that the majority of MMA fighters are only concerned with and only train for the ring and are not concerned with the contingencies that occur on the street. That’s a huge underestimation.