[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1161550]I have friends that lift every day and they’re monsters. They’d probably beat most untrained fighters and anyone that studies tai ji. There I said it! :)[/QUOTE]
Even Bolo?
You guys are doing the either/or thing and we KNOW that isn’t the case guys.
Strength training comes in many forms and depending on your goals you must choose the type that best suits you.
One can indeed get a “maximal” strength workout from BW alone, just not for very long of course.
Muscular endurance is task specific of course BUT it is MORE task specififc than cardio vascular endurance ( in other words there is more carry over from generalized muscular endurance to specific tasks then there is from general cardio to specific cardio).
Boxers do road work because road work is part of the general fitness regime of boxers, just as bag work and sparring is part of the SPECIFIC regime of boxing.
That the cardio from sparirng and bag work translates MORE directly than the cardio from roadwork is only relevant if a boxer could ONLY do one or the other.
That isn’t the case of course.
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1161588]U guys make everything so dam hard. Here’s a thought, how bout using both in tandem. wow what a ground breaking notion.[/QUOTE]
This is probably the best answer.
All the same, body weight exercises can be done with progressive resistance too… squats, jumping squats, one legged squats, one legged jumping squats, push ups, incline push ups, one handed push-ups, etc.
Hey meng, this is the internet. The way I’ve chosen to train (based on hive mind popular opinion) is the right way and everything else is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Lol u would actally think that is the thought pattern around here after reading a few posts. 
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1161610]Lol u would actally think that is the thought pattern around here after reading a few posts. :p[/QUOTE]
Actually, if you look around this subsection forum, you will see that we have had debates about various forms of ST and training in general.
Frost and I have debated HIIT and I recall also debating HIT ST VS tradional volume and we have debated powerlifting VS OL and debated dynamic tension VS weight training and so forth.
You will also find that, by and far, the majority see the value in ALL types of ST ( to varying degrees of course).
I don’t think you will find that " my way is the only way" view here, though you may find the 'My way is better", LOL !
I was stating KF mag. In general, not the subforums. i actually have some of my more productive conversations in these subforums.
[QUOTE=wenshu;1161596]It is certainly not the most efficient way to increase bench press and he won’t be breaking any records but it is idiocy to say that increasing strength is not increasing strength.
[/QUOTE]
Increasing from 30 to 100 pushups isn’t increasing strength as defined by maximal power output.
Muscles get stronger by contracting against heavier loads. Going from 30 to 100 pushups is not increasing the load.
By the same token, someone who can bench 135lbs for 30 reps who increases it to 100 reps has not increased his 1RM or maximal strength.
With the exceptions of:
- untrained noobs
- low (approximately under 8-12 reps assuming average time under tension)
…increasing the amount of reps of something you can do is not building strength.
That doesn’t mean it’s useless, and that doesn’t mean it’s not going to help you become a better fighter or possibly help you in your sport or activity, but it’s not increasing your strength.
By the same token, increasing your 1RM in something does not increase the amount of reps you can do with a lower weight (keeping those previous 2 exceptions in mind).
So why does Pacquiao, Mayweather, etc continue to put in miles every week? Because it’s so ineffective I imagine and they just like getting up at 4am to go running?
I dunno, I’m not their trainers.
I’m saying increasing your running distance doesn’t really tax or increase the output of the energy systems that are used in a fight. Plenty of dudes who can run 10 miles without stopping get gassed after a 2 minute round of fighting.
But yeah, some of the other examples are spot on. If you are the strongest guy on the planet but run out of endurance after 30 seconds, you better hope you can win the fight in the first 30 seconds.
Similarly, if you have infinite endurance but no strength, it’s still going to be a very long fight.
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1161550]I have friends that lift every day and they’re monsters. They’d probably beat most untrained fighters and anyone that studies tai ji. There I said it! :)[/QUOTE]
What if the tai ji guys can shoot fireballs, though? Then who would win?
Greetings,
This was supposed to be just a simple book review. I appreciate how you guys have kept it civil.
The author was of the belief that body weight exercises, when properly done, was superior to weight training. This was his bias. We do not have to make it ours. We have the responsibility to find the best way for our own development. For some of us it will be with weight training. For others it will be body weight exercises. And still for others it will be the combination of the two. I do not believe that everyone will respond the same way to a set of given exercises (I am talking genetics here). Until we understand that, these debates will continue.
mickey
Here, I MSPainted this for you guys.
This is why going from 30-100 pushups doesn’t increase your strength.
Hi IronFist,
Would your strength improve if you changed the way you did 30 push ups?
How about if you incorporated tension holds into the set. I am talking about doing five reps and then holding the posture halfway for a period of seconds, alternating until you get to 30?
I used to apply this method with sit ups many years ago. I went from being only able to do 30 sit ups a day to doing 200 sit ups a day. Did my abs get stronger? Yes. I had to back off because I developed this strong esophageal reflex action. I could be having a conversation with you and throw up in mid sentence. And vomiting while sick was painful.
mickey
What’s your goal? Do you want to be able to
- bench press the most on earth?
- knock down everybody on this planet by your hook punch? or
- throw everybody on this planet by your hip throw?
With different goal, your personal training should be different. By mixing 2 different subjects (be strong and function well) in the same discussion can be confusing.
[QUOTE=mickey;1161736]Hi IronFist,
Would your strength improve if you changed the way you did 30 push ups?
How about if you incorporated tension holds into the set. I am talking about doing five reps and then holding the posture halfway for a period of seconds, alternating until you get to 30?
I used to apply this method with sit ups many years ago. I went from being only able to do 30 sit ups a day to doing 200 sit ups a day. Did my abs get stronger? Yes. I had to back off because I developed this strong esophageal reflex action. I could be having a conversation with you and throw up in mid sentence. And vomiting while sick was painful.
mickey[/QUOTE]
Or doing push ups with a gorilla band wrapped around your back with both your hands in them. The restance will make it so that a few push ups would be equal to many. This would increase maximal stength as well as explosive strength if you try I push really hard.
Body weight exercises aren’t as one dimensional as some of you are making them out to be. If you can do a hundred regular push ups then it’s time to modify by putting your feet up on a bench. Doing them at this angle makes it more challenging.
Probably the main reason exercise gurus and coaches don’t push body weight exercises is because there is little money to be made. In order to make $$ I need you to buy my weights, kettle bells, and come to my gym to train. Maybe this is why weights are pushed over body weight drills.
I saw the dumbest thing at a sports store recently. They were basically selling a duffle bag with separate bags to put sand in. Then you out those bags in the duffle bag and lift. I decided I would make my own only to find out that people have been doing this for a while. Oh well. There’s always a sucker who is going to buy a duffle bag. I really thought I came up with a new idea. Silly me. 
[QUOTE=mickey;1161736]Hi IronFist,
Would your strength improve if you changed the way you did 30 push ups?[/quote]
I like the way you’re thinking.
The answer is… kind of.
If you do something with less leverage, such as going from “regular” pushups (hands at shoulder width) to “diamond” pushups (hands closer together, more focus on triceps), initially your triceps are probably going to get a little bit stronger (unless you could already do a lot of them when you started) because they’re now doing more of the work. But once you get past a certain number of reps (time under tension), they won’t get any stronger, meaning they won’t be able to generate any additional force.
Same thing with going from diamond pushups to one armed pushups, for example.
It’s important to remember in these examples however that something like pushups doesn’t translate directly to bench press because even if you were able to match the weights exactly, the motion is still different, and the neural pathways are still different. This is the same reason why bench pressing is not like throwing a punch, and this is the same reason why all those exercises you see people doing on the cable machines, trying to mimic their golf swing, or tennis swing, or baseball swing, or throwing punches, isn’t actually making them better or more powerful at that specific movement. Instead, it’s making them better at doing a weird variant of it on a cable machine.
Ok, back on topic here.
How about if you incorporated tension holds into the set. I am talking about doing five reps and then holding the posture halfway for a period of seconds, alternating until you get to 30?
That may help if you’re holding the posture at a weak point for you, such as where you normally fail. Sometimes power lifters will do partial reps on bench press to focus on the point where they “stall” in their lifts.
It’s important to keep in mind that static holds, whether with weights or body weight, are only going to strengthen the muscle at that particular angle (+/- 15 degrees or so, I forgot the exact number).
I believe, however, that there is a minority of the population whose muscles get stronger through the entire ROM even through partial rep training. It must be a CNS wiring issue. But like I said, they’re the minority so don’t assume you are in this category.
Back to your example. It will appear more “tiring” and you will probably get a huge pump from it, but it’s not necessarily going to make your muscles capable of producing more force once you get past a certain time under tension in your training.
Do not mistake effort for increasing strength, and do not mistake a pump for an effective workout. Low rep strength training (all sets 5 reps or less) is “easier” than higher rep endurance or bodybuilding training, because there’s much less lactic acid buildup, and much less “burn.” In fact, many strength programs recommend stopping a rep before failure, rather than hitting failure or trying to work through it. These workouts don’t “hurt” in the traditional sense (that is NOT to say they are “easy”), but they are effective at making you strong.
I used to apply this method with sit ups many years ago. I went from being only able to do 30 sit ups a day to doing 200 sit ups a day. Did my abs get stronger?
Do you know they got stronger because you tested their maximal strength output with weights?
Yes. I had to back off because I developed this strong esophageal reflex action. I could be having a conversation with you and throw up in mid sentence. And vomiting while sick was painful.
Ouch :eek:
I’ve never heard of anyone throwing up from doing situps, but glad you’re better now.
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1161757]Or doing push ups with a gorilla band wrapped around your back with both your hands in them. The restance will make it so that a few push ups would be equal to many. [/quote]
False, there is no conversion for heavier weight -> lighter weight with more reps. The effect on your body is different. In other words, doing fewer pushups with added resistance is not equal to doing more pushups without added resistance.
This would increase maximal stength as well as explosive strength if you try I push really hard.
It could increase maximal strength since you are increasing the force against which your muscles are contracting.
Body weight exercises aren’t as one dimensional as some of you are making them out to be. If you can do a hundred regular push ups then it’s time to modify by putting your feet up on a bench. Doing them at this angle makes it more challenging.
Putting your feet on a bench changes the angle and puts more of the emphasis on your anterior (front) deltoids and takes some of the emphasis off of your chest. It’s a different movement. It’s “harder,” but that’s because you’re putting more of the force on a smaller and weaker muscle. So basically, your chest is getting less of a workout.
Handstand pushups are like doing pushups with your feet up even higher. That is almost all deltoids and triceps with almost no chest involvement at all. They are harder because smaller muscles are doing more of the work.
Probably the main reason exercise gurus and coaches don’t push body weight exercises is because there is little money to be made. In order to make $$ I need you to buy my weights, kettle bells, and come to my gym to train. Maybe this is why weights are pushed over body weight drills.
Or it’s because there is a limit to what you can do without weights.
Body weight training has many good uses, but it’s no replacement for weights.
I saw the dumbest thing at a sports store recently. They were basically selling a duffle bag with separate bags to put sand in. Then you out those bags in the duffle bag and lift. I decided I would make my own only to find out that people have been doing this for a while. Oh well. There’s always a sucker who is going to buy a duffle bag. I really thought I came up with a new idea. Silly me.
Yeah you can make that yourself if you want. I made my own wrist roller out of a piece of PVC pipe and rope for like $5 because I didn’t want to buy one.
Most people don’t have the money to buy weights (barbells, dumbbells, squat rack, bench) themselves, nor do they have the space to store all of that stuff, so they join gyms.
Yes, there is some expensive nonsense out there. I am a big proponent of DIY if you can do it cheaply and effectively. So far I have DIY’ed a wrist roller and a set of parallettes that I made from about $15 of PVC pipe (they were like $50-100+ online, granted some of those were wood and/or metal). Btw, if you’re gonna make parallettes, use the thicker PVC, and don’t make them too long so they don’t sag.
[QUOTE=IronFist;1161729]Increasing from 30 to 100 pushups isn’t increasing strength as defined by maximal power output.
Muscles get stronger by contracting against heavier loads. Going from 30 to 100 pushups is not increasing the load.
By the same token, someone who can bench 135lbs for 30 reps who increases it to 100 reps has not increased his 1RM or maximal strength.
With the exceptions of:
- untrained noobs
- low (approximately under 8-12 reps assuming average time under tension)
…increasing the amount of reps of something you can do is not building strength.
That doesn’t mean it’s useless, and that doesn’t mean it’s not going to help you become a better fighter or possibly help you in your sport or activity, but it’s not increasing your strength.
By the same token, increasing your 1RM in something does not increase the amount of reps you can do with a lower weight (keeping those previous 2 exceptions in mind).
I dunno, I’m not their trainers.
I’m saying increasing your running distance doesn’t really tax or increase the output of the energy systems that are used in a fight. Plenty of dudes who can run 10 miles without stopping get gassed after a 2 minute round of fighting.
But yeah, some of the other examples are spot on. If you are the strongest guy on the planet but run out of endurance after 30 seconds, you better hope you can win the fight in the first 30 seconds.
Similarly, if you have infinite endurance but no strength, it’s still going to be a very long fight.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=IronFist;1161734]Here, I MSPainted this for you guys.
This is why going from 30-100 pushups doesn’t increase your strength.[/QUOTE]
That graph is based on actual science? Or just your own oversimplified misconceptions drawn from the mindless repetition of long debunked myths about strength and conditioning?
There is no linear distinction between training for muscular endurance and training for strength. All muscular endurance training will train a little bit of strength and all strength training will train a little bit of endurance.
There is no black and white, only grey areas. Saying that someone will not increase their strength by increasing the amount of push ups they can do is retarded.
Is it the most efficient way to increase your 1rm? Absolutely not. But not everyone needs a crazy 1 rm max for the work they’re putting in.
Sexy though this maybe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-nlhZ0RR4A.
Fighters would be better spent training actual fighting skills and things like VO2 max and cardiac output than trying to put 500lbs over their heads.
You can’t throw the words strength and power around without qualifiers, this isn’t the WC forum.
It would seem that the guy that can do 15 chins is stronger than the guy that can do 10, unless of course the guy dong 10 weights 200 and the guy doing 15 weights 150.
Context and all that.
In a nutshell, it is the rep range that dictates they TYPE of strength you are building/working on.
If you can only do 3 push ups then you are building your maximal strength ( how strong you are at lifting something), but if you cna do 30 push ups, you are in the realm of muscular endurance ( how long/how many reps of an activity you can do).
With BW exercises people are all over the place, fro some it is maximal strength since they can only do a few reps but for others it is muscular endurance because they can do reps “all night long”.
It is incorrect to say that the guy that benches 300lbs for 3 reps is stronger than the guy that benches 200 for 10 because unless we qualify what TYPE of strength we are talking about, we may be talking past each other.
Fighters would be better spent training actual fighting skills and things like VO2 max and cardiac output than trying to put 500lbs over their heads.
Why not both?
The other day I had to help get a fridge out of someone’s basement and NONE of the VO2 Max training would have helped me on that.
Being able to DL over 300lbs did help me though.
Of course if I had to run to the bus in 3.6 seconds, benching 300lbs would make very little difference to me, so would being able to run for 30 min without huff and puffing.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1161793]Why not both?
The other day I had to help get a fridge out of someone’s basement and NONE of the VO2 Max training would have helped me on that.
Being able to DL over 300lbs did help me though.
Of course if I had to run to the bus in 3.6 seconds, benching 300lbs would make very little difference to me, so would being able to run for 30 min without huff and puffing.[/QUOTE]
Of course you need both stop being sensible if twoo guys are the same weight and have the same level of conditioning who is going to tire first the stronger one because the one who can put 500 pounds over his head will be using less force and recruiting less muscles and using less power that than the one who cant
Just like you can’t get enough stimulus from your MMA training to really push your conditioning to the level needed, you also can’t get enough strength from just your MMA training
Oh and sorry Ironfist but roadwork is very scientific and very useful for combat sports, anyone who understands the energy systems and the role the aerobic system plays in all of them understands why roadwork is so important
[QUOTE=Frost;1161811]Of course you need both stop being sensible if twoo guys are the same weight and have the same level of conditioning who is going to tire first the stronger one because the one who can put 500 pounds over his head will be using less force and recruiting less muscles and using less power that than the one who cant
Just like you can’t get enough stimulus from your MMA training to really push your conditioning to the level needed, you also can’t get enough strength from just your MMA training
Oh and sorry Ironfist but roadwork is very scientific and very useful for combat sports, anyone who understands the energy systems and the role the aerobic system plays in all of them understands why roadwork is so important[/QUOTE]
Did you ever read Fred Hatfields view on roadwork and why Holyfield curtailed it when he was HW champ?